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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default Mace Windu (or: Long Impressive Lists of People and Their Types)

    Since watching RedLetterMedia's funny, excellent, yet somewhat over-the-top video reviews of the Star Wars prequels (the review of part II itself lasted 70 minutes), I've grown increasingly interested in discussing the personality types of Star Wars characters. I am NOT interested in reading the long impressive-looking lists of characters along with all their type calls. Many of the characters in those lists are too obscure to be of any interest. And the lists are so long and dogmatic as to obviate discussion.

    I am interested in defining the main characters in particular, such as boring old Mace Windu. He may be found to be more interesting than reading a Jedi instruction manual with a type pasted over the cover. Or a cut-out cardboard character with a label stuck on its forehead. Defining a person according to a type should be more difficult than defining the word "table." (In case anyone cares, try defining "table," according to rules of species and genera, without reference to any dictionary or other source; now imagine how much more challenging it would be to define an individual person, much less a generic table.)

    I also want to know if it's possible to type the Jedi Order itself. Enneatype 1? Repressive of love, idealistic, reforming, demands an orderly galactic federation.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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  3. #3
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I also want to know if it's possible to type the Jedi Order itself. Enneatype 1? Repressive of love, idealistic, reforming, demands an orderly galactic federation.
    Yes, that would be my assessment too.

    It reminds me in some ways of Ghandi's severity.

    EDIT: The funny thing is, I don't know if George meant to have the Jedi come off so badly. I do know that BioWare (or whoever did SWKOTOR) picked up the ball on that one and ran with it. In the game(s), it seems like that depiction of the Jedi and their unhuman severity made them more the flip side of the Sith coin rather than necessary "good" to the Sith "evil," and they played both sides out in that vein, consciously.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    ISFJ.

    Type 1 sounds good, but I'm not sure.

    It reminds me in some ways of Ghandi's severity.
    Normal. They have similar MBTI types. ISFJ for MW, INFJ for Gandhi.
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    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, that would be my assessment too.

    It reminds me in some ways of Ghandi's severity.

    EDIT: The funny thing is, I don't know if George meant to have the Jedi come off so badly. I do know that BioWare (or whoever did SWKOTOR) picked up the ball on that one and ran with it. In the game(s), it seems like that depiction of the Jedi and their unhuman severity made them more the flip side of the Sith coin rather than necessary "good" to the Sith "evil," and they played both sides out in that vein, consciously.
    I've tried looking at this from the viewpoint of an Achilles Heel. The Jedi can't simply be good guys who fell to defeat without there being a weakness for someone such as Palpatine to prey upon. We know Anakin's weakness and how that worked toward the dark side. Since his weakness was love, I've considered the idea that the same weakness holds for the Jedi Order, except for them it is repressed love. And then Luke's strength was finding the proper place for love, not repressed pseudo-rationality Jedi stoicism or the over-expressed fanatical love of Anakin.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Those posters aren't about typing the individuals, it's just the attitude coming out of the picture. That's why I've seen the same person depicted as different types in different posters.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #7
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Interesting, I was thinking about the nature of the Jedi ideals the other night.

    I think it was meant to be positive 9w1 - commune with the Force, purify your Self, have harmony and justice in the galaxy. But it falls to the 9 trap of apathy and the 1 trap of restriction. .. there's a reason "passion" is a generally positive word outside of its Christian theological interpretation. Personally, I don't have a problem with "attachment" - I think it's one of the things about life that makes it worth living, even though it's certainly a double-edged sword. I think the Jedi way could have used a little more in terms of tempering via "everything in moderation, including moderation". Because otherwise, what is it, exactly, that you live for?

    But then, that's taking it as an actual philosophy and not as a plot component.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+
    And then Luke's strength was finding the proper place for love, not repressed pseudo-rationality Jedi stoicism or the over-expressed fanatical love of Anakin.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Interesting, I was thinking about the nature of the Jedi ideals the other night.

    I think it was meant to be positive 9w1 - commune with the Force, purify your Self, have harmony and justice in the galaxy. But it falls to the 9 trap of apathy and the 1 trap of restriction. .. there's a reason "passion" is a generally positive word outside of its Christian theological interpretation. Personally, I don't have a problem with "attachment" - I think it's one of the things about life that makes it worth living, even though it's certainly a double-edged sword. I think the Jedi way could have used a little more in terms of tempering via "everything in moderation, including moderation". Because otherwise, what is it, exactly, that you live for?

    But then, that's taking it as an actual philosophy and not as a plot component.
    This bears some positive comparison with the Oath of Peace of the new Lords of Revelstone (The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant), whose Oath prevented them from understanding the Lore of the Old Lords. The Old Lords were under no such restrictive idea as an Oath of Peace, and so were freely capable of pursuing the magical arts. If the Jedi Order had the wrong idea about love, then maybe it was similarly restrictive of their potential. That's why it was necessary to bring balance to the Force. If the Jedi Order were a person's psyche, then Palpatine would be nothing more, in Jungian terms, than an unconscious, repressed function, the inferior Te to INFP. So the Jedi Order is an INFP (or ISFP).
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I've tried looking at this from the viewpoint of an Achilles Heel. The Jedi can't simply be good guys who fell to defeat without there being a weakness for someone such as Palpatine to prey upon. We know Anakin's weakness and how that worked toward the dark side. Since his weakness was love, I've considered the idea that the same weakness holds for the Jedi Order, except for them it is repressed love. And then Luke's strength was finding the proper place for love, not repressed pseudo-rationality Jedi stoicism or the over-expressed fanatical love of Anakin.
    That's a nice way to say it. The Jedi and Anakin were extremes of passion that should have been more balanced in order to be effective. Anakin used his passion to destroy, the Jedi squelched/drained it of all life in order to control it. Is there a middle ground? Luke probably came the closest, because he was willing to use it to address/engage his father but not CONTROL or DOMINATE his father.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    This bears some positive comparison with the Oath of Peace of the new Lords of Revelstone (The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant), whose Oath prevented them from understanding the Lore of the Old Lords.
    WOO HOO! I was just thinking that too. Their Vow of peace, which they held in the highest regard, prevented them from possessing power to resist and destroy evil. ("innocence is a wonderful thing, except you're impotent. Only the guilty have power.")

    The Old Lords were under no such restrictive idea as an Oath of Peace, and so were freely capable of pursuing the magical arts.
    Exactly. And Mhoram realized this and utilized his passion in The Power That Preserves in order to destroy evil... although then he eschewed power completely and sought other ways to serve the Land. (which was a great idea, except that over the next 2000 years Foul managed to taint that choice as well, since it left later lords powerless and incapable of perceiving his influence).

    If the Jedi Order had the wrong idea about love, then maybe it was similarly restrictive of their potential. That's why it was necessary to bring balance to the Force. If the Jedi Order were a person's psyche, then Palpatine would be nothing more, in Jungian terms, than an unconscious, repressed function, the inferior Te to INFP. So the Jedi Order is an INFP (or ISFP).
    Meh. Just look at them. They don't look very IFP to me.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's a nice way to say it. The Jedi and Anakin were extremes of passion that should have been more balanced in order to be effective. Anakin used his passion to destroy, the Jedi squelched/drained it of all life in order to control it. Is there a middle ground? Luke probably came the closest, because he was willing to use it to address/engage his father but not CONTROL or DOMINATE his father.



    WOO HOO! I was just thinking that too. Their Vow of peace, which they held in the highest regard, prevented them from possessing power to resist and destroy evil. ("innocence is a wonderful thing, except you're impotent. Only the guilty have power.")

    Exactly. And Mhoram realized this and utilized his passion in The Power That Preserves in order to destroy evil... although then he eschewed power completely and sought other ways to serve the Land. (which was a great idea, except that over the next 2000 years Foul managed to taint that choice as well, since it left later lords powerless and incapable of perceiving his influence).
    The Chronicles are endlessly fascinating, aren't they? And Lord Foul avoids the fallacy of seeing everything as a nail because all he has is a hammer. In fact, his methods became more patient and methodological over the centuries. No more huge LOTR-style armies, just the gradual subversion of the good guys toward Despite over the generations so that they never saw the change happen. Don't get me wrong, the armies were great. The idea that there were even MORE bad-guy soldiers in TPTP, while the good guys were still weak from the previous book's battles, made it even better. And in the 3rd Chronicles, we are introduced to a different, even more insidious methodology, involving more people from the "real" world, and more psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Meh. Just look at them. They don't look very IFP to me.
    As for IFP, I wasn't looking at the individual Jedi but the Jedi philosophy. I consider this philosophy as leading to the withdrawn, introverted methodology of the Jedi in the prequels. Evidence of this - sending only one or two Jedi on any given mission; sitting around in their conference room talking with smug self-satisfaction; slow, yet well-thought out and methodical, at taking positive action.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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