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Thread: The Avengers

  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    And why do you think he is in "shadow[S][/S] " mode again?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  2. #32
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    ...Mocking me again?

    To answer your question: Because Avenger Loki is the complete opposite from Thor Loki.

    While he was very much a schemer from the get-go, initially Loki had a very subtle plan that he didn't reveal to anybody, and maintained an air of mystery and menacing silence as he launched it. It was similar to a knife-in-the-back. It smacked of the INTJ mastermind. It was this close to working, too.

    He's the polar opposite in The Avengers. Loki goes with an enthusiastic "sledgehammer" approach, revealing his plan from the minute he arrives. He is no longer quiet or self-contained--in fact, he can't stop talking. Nonetheless, the role he plays does not feel organic for a second. He is lashing out like an angry child; a "diva" as Tony Stark notes. And his plan never really gains a realistic amount of traction. Coulson also alludes to with his dying words; Loki is ultimately responsible for his inevitable defeat.

    This "extroverted narcissist" isn't a natural state for the character--he is obviously psychotic and deluded from the minute he arrives in The Avengers. Given what has happened to him over the course of Thor and The Avengers, it makes sense.

  3. #33
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    I'm inclined to agree that Hawkeye is a blatant ISTP, but I also read a lot of comic books and have a bit of difficulty separating my impressions from the comics from the movie.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck_of_Death View Post
    ...Mocking me again?
    Geesh, dude -- If you consider that to be "mocking," you really need to loosen up a bit. (and I'm not sure what the "again" is -- obviously you are taking things more much thin-skinned than I've meant them).

    To answer your question: Because Avenger Loki is the complete opposite from Thor Loki.

    While he was very much a schemer from the get-go, initially Loki had a very subtle plan that he didn't reveal to anybody, and maintained an air of mystery and menacing silence as he launched it. It was similar to a knife-in-the-back. It smacked of the INTJ mastermind. It was this close to working, too.

    He's the polar opposite in The Avengers. Loki goes with an enthusiastic "sledgehammer" approach, revealing his plan from the minute he arrives. He is no longer quiet or self-contained--in fact, he can't stop talking. Nonetheless, the role he plays does not feel organic for a second. He is lashing out like an angry child; a "diva" as Tony Stark notes. And his plan never really gains a realistic amount of traction. Coulson also alludes to with his dying words; Loki is ultimately responsible for his inevitable defeat.

    This "extroverted narcissist" isn't a natural state for the character--he is obviously psychotic and deluded from the minute he arrives in The Avengers. Given what has happened to him over the course of Thor and The Avengers, it makes sense.
    Thank you for the explanation. I really just didn't even see it, because I guess I just honed in on his normal type. If he's stressed, he's stressed, but I didn't really think of it in terms "shadow ENTP," nor am I convinced it needs to be viewed that way.... I don't think it adds much to the discussion, except as a confusing diversion in regards to the character's true type.

    It's also a movie, so I don't take translations from book type to movie type to mean much -- the reality is in that in movies, you need to extravert more because it's a visual medium.... it's difficult to pull off the pensive type convincingly, especially in an action movie. Histrionics are just far more typically seen in superhero movies because of the medium.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Geesh, dude -- If you consider that to be "mocking," you really need to loosen up a bit. (and I'm not sure what the "again" is -- obviously you are taking things more much thin-skinned than I've meant them).
    It's hard to read sarcasm via text, don'cha know?
    I simply assumed.

    It's also a movie, so I don't take translations from book type to movie type to mean much -- the reality is in that in movies, you need to extravert more because it's a visual medium.... it's difficult to pull off the pensive type convincingly, especially in an action movie. Histrionics are just far more typically seen in superhero movies because of the medium.
    For modern audiences that is disgustingly true.
    Take a look at the reaction to Drive which featured a lead that speaks less than The Terminator.

    Either way, I suspect Loki's evolution from "quiet schemer" to "grandiose warlord" was done on purpose to emphasize his mental decay. Despite being a big budget "blockbuster" The Avengers was a very thoughtful character-driven work...which is among the reasons I enjoyed it so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck_of_Death View Post
    For modern audiences that is disgustingly true.
    Take a look at the reaction to Drive which featured a lead that speaks less than The Terminator.
    For me, movies like "The Remains of the Day" and "Drive" are the exception -- where characters who do not really say much (or don't say anything about what they're actually feeling) are actually portrayed very convincingly. Gosling and Hopkins (and a few others) have always been good at those kinds of roles; Gosling in "Lars and the Real Girl" is another good example, where his character with social anxiety still manages to convey a great deal regardless of what he doesn't say.

    Drive didn't really do well in the box office, did it? Sigh.


    Either way, I suspect Loki's evolution from "quiet schemer" to "grandiose warlord" was done on purpose to emphasize his mental decay. Despite being a big budget "blockbuster" The Avengers was a very thoughtful character-driven work...which is among the reasons I enjoyed it so much.
    For whatever reason, I found it fun the first time in the theater but haven't felt compelled to watch it again; it didn't really present anything that I felt the need to re-experience/savor.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
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    Iron Man: ENTP 7w8 Sp/Sx - 8 wing, he's very much in touch with anger and very aggressive
    that works

    Captain America: ISFJ 6w5 So/Sx - cautious, strong sense of duty and responsibility, yadda yadda, typical e6
    he's not cautious at all, and he's certainly not a typical 6 (also, where's the 5 wing?)

    Hulk: INTP 5w6 Sp/Sx (he's 9w8 in the comics) 9w8 - don't know where you're seeing e5, lacks detachment
    that could work

    Black Widow: ISTP 3w4 Sp/Sx - she seems 6ish as well, but not too confident about it
    there is nothing 6-ish about her. she is about to potentially die, calmly talks on her cell phone and kicks several guys' asses all the while looking like she's bored that it isn't more of a challenge

    Loki: INFJ 4w3 Sx - classic sx 4 average to unhealthy level behavior
    perhaps, but 6w5 works better imo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    he's not cautious at all, and he's certainly not a typical 6 (also, where's the 5 wing?)
    He's a walking SJ e6 description. In those e6 descriptions, there is an emphasis on loyalty, towards the systems, beliefs, etc etc. There's also a selflessness that I see in him that I see in type 6. There's this sense of failure, inability to fulfill duty, and he wants to redeem himself. I can also see e1 for him, because of his rigidity, underlying anger, and sense of right/wrong. I won't argue wing, but a 6 core seems reasonable. For the record, even though it shouldn't be taken literally, the 6w5 type is labeled the 'defender.'

    there is nothing 6-ish about her. she is about to potentially die, calmly talks on her cell phone and kicks several guys' asses all the while looking like she's bored that it isn't more of a challenge
    Counter-phobic 6. She has trust and guidance issues that are commonly associated with e6. She's very good at reading between the lines, ie the conversation with the imprisoned Loki. She revealed her background and her relationship with Hawkeye - the theme was lack of guidance until she met Hawkeye. You mentioned her kicking ass, which doesn't really narrow it to e3.

    perhaps, but 6w5 works better imo
    In the Thor movie and in this movie he seems very 4. I think I can see where you're getting the 6 (planning/cautious behavior), but the 4 comes first.
    - He sees himself as primarily flawed, cast away, rejected, an outsider in relation to Odin and Thor
    - Blatant envy of his brother Thor
    - His shame and suffering is projected outward at hostility towards others ---> his dramatic behavior that ppl are confusing for entp 'shadow'
    - Image frustration - shame that he cannot live up to his idealized self-image
    - He looks at other ppl like they're stupid little lemmings and acts entitled - because he's fixated on the darkness, on his own suffering (4 delusion)

  9. #39
    Senior Member Jade Curtiss's Avatar
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    Ironman: ENTP 7w8 sx/so
    Bruce Banner: INFJ 9w1 sp/sx
    Thor: ESTJ (possibly ESTP) 3w2 sx/so
    Hawkeye: ISTP 5w6-9w8-3w2
    Black Widow: ISTP 3w4-cp6w5-8w9
    Cap America: iSFJ 2w1 so/sp
    Nick Fury: ENTJ 8w7 so/sx
    Loki: INTP 4w3 Sx/sp
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  10. #40
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    I didnt see enough of hawk eye to tell if he is ISTP or not. It takes more then a keen sense of perception for me to deem him ISTP. I need to see more of an STP side. Black widow I can buy as ISTP.

    Thor seems very ESTP in the movie. He has to much of the calm and composure to be ESTJ. Its like you can see him sitting in Ti as opposed to some fury wrath of a rage when fighting and getting his ass somewhat handed to him(I dont mean he loses, I just mean he doesnt come out unscratched. He takes a beating).

    Bruce Banner I can see as INTP. But at the end when its HULK SMASH HELL YEAH!!!! that one part is ISTP to the core, its our tear shit up, lets see what the hell we can do physically side (though it doesnt make me think Bruce Banner is ISTP) You wont see the "lets see what we can do physically", all you will see is what we can do.
    Im out, its been fun

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