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  1. #301
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Mal+;1848420]
    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post

    You're the one who brought up the notion that Yoda was not a negotiator. Heck, you've said various things to contradict that. If thinking is not your strong suit, then why do it?
    Where did i say anything indicating that Yoda was a negotiator?

    That is a very closed-minded statement. Yoda is an INFJ. If he's not an INFJ, then he is one weird INTP.
    The mbti type of Yoda is INTP, that's all, and you failed to prve that he is not INTP but INFJ.
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  2. #302
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    There's nothing clear at all. You know nothing about Yoda's training and simply speculate hoping that if we believe your speculation we will believe your point.
    Well, yes, because typing characters in the first place is speculative in nature, since we are assuming that a created character has a personality that is on par with a real, living person's personality and we can type them accordingly.

    However, I do believe it is clear that Yoda at least understands emotions; you yourself said that he displays them from time to time. From there we can reason that Yoda - advocating restraint of emotions in his philosophy, demonstrating restraint of emotions in provocative scenarios (eg, battling with Sith lords), and us knowing that Jedi training includes lifelong learning to adhere to the Jedi Code - would have, at some point, had to learn to restrict his emotions (and, even if his emotions are already naturally restricted, he would at least have learned of restriction). My point being, again, we cannot derive the argument that Yoda is a T from the mere fact that he demonstrates restraint of emotions. That would be logical were he an F, as well.

    You use differents words who actually mean the same thing. As an INTP, Yoda considers that feelings prevent us to see things in an objective way. While an INFJ would consider that looking at the human factor is essential to have a good understanding. Also, the Jedi order is not monoblock and there's differents current. Qui-Gon Jinn and Dooku, for example, are true IFJs and they have a very different conception of the Force, and difficulties to align with credo to avoid emotions that Yoda never had.
    No, "reasoning" and "seeing clearly" are vastly different in MBTI terms: one deals with the T/F scale and the other with N/S. "Seeing things" has to do with N/S, not with T/F: T/F is for making decisions and prioritizing information. N/S is about accurately taking in information, which is what Yoda is concerned with - not whether his goals and values are accurate (T/F), but whether his mind-state is clear or clouded (N/S). In fact, it seems rare to me that Yoda displays concern about his reasoning, where we would expect a T-dominant to linger.

    You distording the sense of the words and the basic notions of the model. Yoda is about perception. Therefore he is a Perceiver. While IJ are about Judgment but use their dominant Perceiving function to plan and take judgment alone before they express thelselves outward. The INFJ style is Chart-the-Course and has nothing to do with the passive and detached Behind-the-Scene role of the INTP Yoda.
    You just stated that a person uses their Perceiving to make a Judgment. This is incorrect by definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wookieepedia
    Yoda served as a member of the Jedi High Council in the last centuries of the Galactic Republic and reigned as Grand Master of the Jedi Order before, during and after the devastating Clone Wars. Following the Battle of Geonosis, Yoda held the title of Master of the Order in addition to that of Grand Master. In his centuries of service to the galaxy and the Force, Grand Master Yoda had a hand in the training of nearly all the Jedi in the Order, including such luminaries as Obi-Wan Kenobi, Ki-Adi-Mundi and Oppo Rancisis; all of which would come to serve on the Jedi Council along with him.
    Behind-the-Scenes?

    That can also be tertiary Si. There's nothing which indicate that Yoda have the practical action oriented style of Se-user.
    Si is about creating information patterns associated with concepts / object-ideals (a la Plato's forms), data storage and retrieval, and sensory comparisons between situations. While tertiary Si could be useful in terms of learning the sensory aspects of martial arts, there's nothing about it in comparison to the other Perceiving functions that particularly lends itself to that art form. Whereas Se, direct experiencing and responding, more quickly lends itself to moment-to-moment battle and sensory Force control.

    StephMC posted this:
    Tertiary Si: Find relief with introverted Sensing (INTP/INFP)
    They often enjoy activities like revisiting places they've been, ideas they've explored, and the history of their family, their organization, or even their culture. They collect detailed information about what interests them and may devote time to researching the past to build on what others have already done. They may be drawn to collect memorabilia or keep extensive records of activities and interests. They recognize familiar subtle sensory elements such as tastes, aromas, and spellings. In the physical world, they take comfort in familiarity. They may avoid or resist new experiences preferring to have new experiences match the old ones that were enjoyable. When Younger, they tend not to remember details or put much stock in expected results based on past experience. As they grow, they find they have acquired a rich storehouse of memories, and they learn to recall with accurate detail how something was before and will likely review the past to see what lessons can be learned from it. They often go from avoiding participation in traditions and holidays to genuinely enjoying these. Engaging in introverted Sensing can be unsettling and disruptive at times. They can give too much detail or become too focused on reviewing the past and what's established as valid, even if it is for lessons learned. Or they may end up collecting endless quantities of miscellaneous items that give them comfort in their familiarity but clutter their physical lives.
    Nothing particularly reminiscent of Yoda.

    Yoda don't promote harmony or internal lanscape. He simply observe that that harmony between thing exists because of the Force, and passively accept it.
    But he has chosen the Light Side of the Force, and joined the Jedi Order, "an ancient monastic peacekeeping organization unified by its belief and observance of the Force, specifically the light side" (Wookieepedia). He became the leader of this peacekeeping organization. He actively promoted harmony, the side of the Force that he willingly chose.

    Yoda live according to an ideal. But it's not his own personal ideal. He live based on the principles of a Jedi philosophy that he considers as objective. Actually, Yoda have problems about being too much based on theses impersonals principles and never consider the human factor at the point to look insensitive and dogmatic. Typically INTP.
    Never considers the human factor? Yoda has been a teacher to many, has taken on numerous Padawans, and leads an organization. He is at the center of humanistic activity. Moreover, we have exchanges like this:

    Yoda - "Blind we are, if creation of this clone army, we could not see."
    Mace Windu - "I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."
    Yoda - "Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed, the Senate is, multiply, our adversaries will."

    Yoda is aware of the interpersonal factors and considers human movement in calculating what should or should not be done. Someone who is not interested in the human factors is unlikely to assess the potential impact of creating adversaries so readily. A Fe auxiliary is, because they see how it will disrupt the Ni path to their goals, just as Yoda demonstrates here.

    However, every N are oriented to symbolism and connections between things. Not only NJs. And where are theses things about "holistic archetype of transformation" ? nowhere.
    Again, it is the difference between internal and external. Ne users are very aware of connections in the outside world. They trace patterns through space. NJs are aware of patterns through time, as they have internalized Se events and can use the memory of events to look at the "timescape" in a way similar to the way Ne users look at the present landscape. Yoda, as in the above dialogue, is constantly assessing likelihoods, thus it is Ni and not Ne.

    Also, my phrase was "holistic archetypes and transformation". I will address transformation below. As for holistic archetype, I believe that most people who are even somewhat familiar with Star Wars would quickly identify Yoda as a figurehead, representative of the Jedi and their objectives.

    Yoda is focused on transformation;
    Where?
    Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.
    Always in motion is the future.
    Life creates it, makes it grow.
    Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
    Already know you that which you need.
    Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future...the past. Old friends long gone.
    Attachment leads to jealously. The shadow of greed, that is.
    In this war, a danger there is, of losing who we are.
    This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away...
    Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.

    Yoda is constantly looking at how things move and change, and what that means for the future. Ni. Ni and Se.

    BTW, when Yoda tells "The boy you trained, gone, he is, consumed by Darth Vader" he simply harshly and abrasively says to Obi-Wan to have guts and don't act like an emo guy, but do what it is rational to do. He does't want to consider the human factor, like Luke and Padmé who are true INF and persist to see some good in Darth Vader. Yoda is single-minded and not "focus on transformation". He noticed that something in the external world changed (Ne) and judge that it is logical to kill Vader. He ask to Ob-Wan to see things as they are in an objective way, without letting him disturbed by emotions. So he is Ti-dom and repress Fe.
    He does focus on transformation. Yoda sees, far before the others, that Anakin has been consumed by the Dark Side and will act accordingly. And if we're talking about the human factor, empathy for a single being who has the potential to destroy many is moreso the realm of NFP than NFJ - remember, at this point, that Vader has killed many children, and will soon kill his wife. Yoda is blunt, yes, but I don't think this is a good example of logic overrunning feeling. Instead, it is a good example of Yoda seeing that Vader will continue to commit violence, and, even though it is painful to Obi-Wan, the truth is that the person Anakin was doesn't essentially, currently, exist (because Vader is acting like Vader, not like Anakin). This isn't the external world: this is Anakin/Vader's internal world. This is a Ni realization, not Ne. Assessment of external behavior (Je) and internal motivation (Pi): Fe/Ni. If anything, Yoda gently cautions Obi-Wan before he learns the truth -

    Obi-Wan: Wait, Master. There is something I must know. [inspects a security hologram]
    Yoda: You realize, of course, that if into the security recordings, you go, only pain, will you find.

    Interesting that Yoda doesn't just outrightly tell Obi-Wan the truth, and hasn't previously - this is not a typical INTP tactic, to remain silent about the truth. It is, however, a typical NFJ tactic to remain silent about information to protect another person. Yoda doesn't repress Fe. He utilizes it to protect others.

    holistic universal life energy; how to use that energy; the struggle between Dark and Light.
    Every jedis do this. That has nothing especially INFJ-related.
    Yoda is at the head of the Jedi Order as he has chosen to be and has worked to become - Yoda has chosen this aspect in his life. Moreover, we see other Jedi who are less inclined to focus on this in quite the amount Yoda does, including Anakin, who, as Yoda points out, is much more focused on possibilities and action, and Mace Windu, who is more quick to act and more combat-oriented. Yoda is particularly heady and conceptual, even for a Jedi.

    Where?
    Again:

    Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.
    Always in motion is the future.
    Life creates it, makes it grow.
    Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
    Already know you that which you need.
    Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future...the past. Old friends long gone.
    Attachment leads to jealously. The shadow of greed, that is.
    In this war, a danger there is, of losing who we are.
    This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away...
    Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.

    Yoda is constantly looking at how things move and change, and what that means for the future. Ni. Ni and Se.

    and he uses it to change the universe
    When did yoda want to change the universe?
    Speed. Whenever the Dark Side presence grows, his primary goal and taken-on responsibility is to quash it. He is trying to change the universe for the vast majority of the series.

    Affirmation based on nothing.
    It was based on my previous reasoning. Don't short-quote me and then misinterpret; you know better.

    and relations between people and political factions to encourage the spread of his philosophy; he sees the Force in terms of connections. Yoda is Fe-auxiliary.
    When was Yoda people-oriented and politically oriented?
    Again, Yoda is the head of a huge organization, an instructor in that organization, and takes on Padawans. That is how he is people-oriented. The organization involves itself in political dealings and is a peacekeeping organization in and of itself, necessitating political action. And he served as part of the Jedi High Council within the Galactic Republic. People and political.

    Seeing abstact connections betwwen things is Ne, not Fe.
    Ahh yes and no. I said energy, not abstract connections, first of all, and there's a major difference. Ne users focus on how things are similar, and what kind of patterns those similar things create, and what those patterns indicate. I drew a parallel here between Yoda and Hitler (crazy, right?) because I saw they had some qualitative similarities, which is interesting because they actually led relatively similar lives, if you think about it, even though one is a fictional character on the good side and the other is a real human generally considered to be evil. That's Ne thought, for sure. But I'm not talking about that sort of thing. There have been many discussions on Fe vs Fi and how Fe users utilize distance between things and the nature of relational roles and such. Now, I'm not a Jedi, so I really don't know anything about using the Force, but -

    Yoda: You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.

    he makes it about being between things. And Ne doesn't concentrate so much on the betweens. I think between-thinking is more an indicator of Fe than Ne - especially because in Yoda's galaxy, everything is imbued with the living energy of the Force. Ne thinking would probably be more about major ripples in the Force - but of course this is all conjecture. So are all of your arguments, though, since all of this is about a fictional typing, anyway.

    Yoda don't try to create new images on his own (Ni), but to understand the abstract connection between things in the world. He's not Ni, he is Ne.
    To me, I see Yoda's leadership in the Jedi Order as being a huge indication of a new image / vision and his life as dedication to pursuing that new vision of a peaceful, harmonious world living in tandem with the Force.

    Intelectual masturbation.
    If you're going to insult my ideas, at least spell your insults correctly. I assume your lack of serious response means that you cannot come up with a better argument.

  3. #303
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Me and speed are the only people considering the possibility for Yoda being INTP, and even though it is equally if not more possible that Yoda is INFJ, it is painfully obvious that Yoda acts far differently than NFs Padme, Luke, Leia, Anakin, Qui-gon, and Dooku, and he does seem to be quite the loner living alone in oneness with the natural world, which I would say gives points for Yoda being INTP.
    I'm not sure I find it likely that all those characters are NFs. Count Dooku, NF? Luke... ok, INFP. Leia, ENFJ? I've seen her typed both ESTJ and ENTJ. Anakin? I've read a good theory or two about him going from ISFP to shadow ENTJ, which is pretty cool conceptually, IMO.

    Yoda was only really a loner for those few years he spent in exile... for the rest of his life he was quite active in wars, politics, and in the Jedi Order... not that it points away from INTP necessarily, but I don't think he really seems the hermit type, at least not for the majority of his life. (Though I would imagine any introvert would appreciate some privacy for a while). Still, if he is e9w1, that would add to his self-seclusion and idealism --

    9w1
    Tend to have been "model children." Instinctively worked to please their parents by being virtuous, orderly, and little trouble. When awakened, they have great moral authority plus good-hearted peacemaking tendencies. Often have a sense of mission, public or private, that involves working hard for the welfare of everyone they are committed to. Principled expression of love. Desire to contribute, do little harm. May be well-liked, modest, endearing, gentle yet firm. Some have great grace and composure with bursts of spontaneity and sweetness. Elegant simplicity. When entranced, they tend to be self-neglectful. May go passively dead and operate from a dubious, fractured morality. Dutiful to what they shouldn't be. Play the good child, disappear into contexts, settle for being overlooked or just partly recognized. Passive tolerance of absurd or damaging situations. One-sided relationships where the Nine gives too much. Rationalize, minimize, tell themselves they had a great childhood, everything's fine. Placid numbness creeps over them. Intolerance of their own emotions. Gradually deaden their soul.
    Though I've also seen him typed 1w9 and 5w4 (I still think 9w1 is most likely).

  4. #304
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I'm not sure I find it likely that all those characters are NFs. Count Dooku, NF? Luke... ok, INFP. Leia, ENFJ? I've seen her typed both ESTJ and ENTJ. Anakin? I've read a good theory or two about him going from ISFP to shadow ENTJ, which is pretty cool conceptually, IMO.

    Yoda was only really a loner for those few years he spent in exile... for the rest of his life he was quite active in wars, politics, and in the Jedi Order... not that it points away from INTP necessarily, but I don't think he really seems the hermit type, at least not for the majority of his life.
    I think the point they are struggling to make is that Yoda was happy living alone in a swamp. That being alone was his preference. And somehow this connects with his being INTP.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  5. #305
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    Yoda looks a lot like a TP gangster here, although he is non-canonically delicted.

  6. #306
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Well, yes, because typing characters in the first place is speculative
    No, we can type simply watching what happens on the screen. What you do is speculation.


    However, I do believe it is clear that Yoda at least understands emotions;
    At a logical level maybe.

    you yourself said that he displays them from time to time
    Yes, INTPs are often laid-back and thoses who are 9s are pretty people fiendly and emphatic. That doesn't mean that they are F, meaning that they prefer to take decisions based on emotions and value judgments.


    From there we can reason that Yoda - advocating restraint of emotions in his philosophy, demonstrating restraint of emotions in provocative scenarios (eg, battling with Sith lords), and us knowing that Jedi training includes lifelong learning to adhere to the Jedi Code - would have, at some point, had to learn to restrict his emotions (and, even if his emotions are already naturally restricted, he would at least have learned of restriction). My point being, again, we cannot derive the argument that Yoda is a T from the mere fact that he demonstrates restraint of emotions. That would be logical were he an F, as well.

    Your entire argument is based on the hypothetic fact that Yoda needed to learn how to control his emotions. While there's nothing concrete which indicate that and that his preference for Thinking is visible.


    No, "reasoning" and "seeing clearly" are vastly different in MBTI terms: one deals with the T/F scale and the other with N/S. "Seeing things" has to do with N/S, not with T/F: T/F is for making decisions and prioritizing information. N/S is about accurately taking in information, which is what Yoda is concerned with - not whether his goals and values are accurate (T/F), but whether his mind-state is clear or clouded (N/S). In fact, it seems rare to me that Yoda displays concern about his reasoning, where we would expect a T-dominant to linger.
    I don't see how is that related to the differences between the INTP Yoda and the true IFJs Qui-Gon and Dooku. That being said, Ti is about logical understanding, same thing than "seeing clearly".


    You just stated that a person uses their Perceiving to make a Judgment. This is incorrect by definition.
    No. That's one of the basic notion of MBTI. You must collect informations to take decision. Then there's thoses who prefer judgment, and thoses who prefer perception. and Yoda prefer perception, therefore he is a P, not a J. QED.


    Behind-the-Scenes?
    http://www.bestfittype.com/interactionstyles.html


    Si is about creating information patterns associated with concepts / object-ideals (a la Plato's forms),
    Si is about concrete data, not concept. And Plato was an Ni-dom. Lack of consistencies.

    While tertiary Si could be useful in terms of learning the sensory aspects of martial arts, there's nothing about it in comparison to the other Perceiving functions that particularly lends itself to that art form.
    Si help for rigor, control and awareness of he body, training. When your Si is well developped, the martial arts knowledge is inside your body, and you practice it like you are wearing a clothe.

    Whereas Se, direct experiencing and responding, more quickly lends itself to moment-to-moment battle and sensory Force control.
    If we followed you, anyone who use a lightsaber should be aither SP or NJ, that can't be taken seriously.

    StephMC posted this:


    Nothing particularly reminiscent of Yoda.
    It's wrong.


    Tertiary Si: Find relief with introverted Sensing (INTP/INFP)
    They often enjoy activities like revisiting places they've been, ideas they've explored,
    In Episode 3, Yoda is happy to go back to Kashyyk, because he had been on that planet for the past.

    and the history of their family, their organization, or even their culture. They collect detailed information about what interests them and may devote time to researching the past to build on what others have already done. They may be drawn to collect memorabilia or keep extensive records of activities and interests.
    That describes yoda very well. He remember everything, he is a living encyclopedia.

    They recognize familiar subtle sensory elements such as tastes, aromas, and spellings. In the physical world, they take comfort in familiarity.
    Describe pretty well his behavior on Dagobah.

    They may avoid or resist new experiences preferring to have new experiences match the old ones that were enjoyable.
    Him. Yoda prefer to avoid eating the Luke's food on Dagobah.

    As they grow, they find they have acquired a rich storehouse of memories, and they learn to recall with accurate detail how something was before and will likely review the past to see what lessons can be learned from it.
    Him.

    They often go from avoiding participation in traditions and holidays to genuinely enjoying these.
    Him.

    Engaging in introverted Sensing can be unsettling and disruptive at times. They can give too much detail or become too focused on reviewing the past and what's established as valid, even if it is for lessons learned. Or they may end up collecting endless quantities of miscellaneous items that give them comfort in their familiarity but clutter their physical lives.
    Him. Yoda is traditionalistic and avoid taking decisions and judgment for the future. So he's not an NJ.



    But he has chosen the Light Side of the Force, and joined the Jedi Order, "an ancient monastic peacekeeping organization unified by its belief and observance of the Force, specifically the light side" (Wookieepedia). He became the leader of this peacekeeping organization. He actively promoted harmony, the side of the Force that he willingly chose.
    INTP are peaceful too. INFJs can be not peaceful at all. Was Hitler peaceful? And Khomeny? Trotsky? Bin Laden? Actually, INFJs can arguably be less peaceful than the low key and laid back INTPs. Yoda chosed, his side, his choice is not justified by value judjments. Are you saying that a Thinker can't choose the light side? That doesn't work.


    Never considers the human factor? Yoda has been a teacher to many, has taken on numerous Padawans, and leads an organization. He is at the center of humanistic activity. Moreover, we have exchanges like this:
    A teacher who consider the human factor cosider primarly the inidividuality and the feeling of the pupil. Yoda doesn't do this.

    Yoda - "Blind we are, if creation of this clone army, we could not see."
    Mace Windu - "I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."
    Yoda - "Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed, the Senate is, multiply, our adversaries will."
    That's just an analysis of the situation. Nothing specifically F or J.

    Yoda is aware of the interpersonal factors and considers human movement in calculating what should or should not be done. Someone who is not interested in the human factors is unlikely to assess the potential impact of creating adversaries so readily. A Fe auxiliary is, because they see how it will disrupt the Ni path to their goals, just as Yoda demonstrates here.
    An anlysis of the movments of power has nothing to do with decisions based on values and emotions, and can perfectly be done with Ti supported by Ne. So, no, there still no decisive clue that Yoda is FJ.



    Again, it is the difference between internal and external. Ne users are very aware of connections in the outside world. They trace patterns through space.
    Yes, that is what Yoda does.

    as they have internalized Se events and can use the memory of events
    Memory of events is Si.


    Yoda, as in the above dialogue, is constantly assessing likelihoods, thus it is Ni and not Ne.

    You can assess likelihood analysing what is logically likely to happen. So Ti and Ne.

    As for holistic archetype, I believe that most people who are even somewhat familiar with Star Wars would quickly identify Yoda as a figurehead, representative of the Jedi and their objectives.
    I'am familiar with Star Wars. Yoda is not more representative of the jedi and their objectives than Ob-Wan. And none of them are INFJs. Actually, Dooku is INFJs, and he has a hard time to get along with the jedi order because that made him too much idealistic, value oriented and independant. He completely different woth Yoda.


    Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.
    Yoda is not predicting the Luke's future. He's expalining a universal principle which always works without nuance or subjective ambiguity (the human factor): Ti.

    Always in motion is the future.

    Yoda look at the future, but still opened to the multiples growing possibilities: NP, not NJ.


    Life creates it, makes it grow.
    Extroverted perception.


    Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
    Objective principle, abstract pattern: Ti. You will also remark that Yoda don't care about being harsh and abrasive with the little boy. He just explain things impartially without value judgment: Ti, not Fe.


    Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future...the past. Old friends long gone.
    Perception going in multiples directions: Ne.

    Attachment leads to jealously. The shadow of greed, that is.
    Avoidance of attachment. Of feelings. T.

    In this war, a danger there is, of losing who we are.
    Objective anlysis. Yoda is wise and intelligent. That doesn't mean he is INFJ.

    This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away...
    So, he looked at something, then he is INFJ?

    Am I an INFJ if I look at my sexy neighbor naked in her bathroom through my window?

    Yoda look at Luke and analyse him in an impersonal and impartial harsh way, he is T, not F.

    Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.

    I've ever answered for this.

    Yoda is constantly looking at how things move and change, and what that means for the future.
    Ne.



    (quote]He does focus on transformation. Yoda sees, far before the others, that Anakin has been consumed by the Dark Side[/quote]


    Hem, no.

    This isn't the external world: this is Anakin/Vader's internal world. This is a Ni realization, not Ne. Assessment of external behavior (Je) and internal motivation (Pi): Fe/Ni.
    Yoda observed that Anakin has fallen to the Darth Side, and then he anlyse the situation relying on strct impersonal principle, wich say that once you've fallen to the dark side there's no possible return. An impersonal anlysis like that is not considering the human factor, which is in this case is to see that there still some good in Anakin. So Padme and Luke are F, Yoda is T. You'te basically saying "Yoda is observing a human being, so he is considering the human factor". That doesn't work; And btw, yoda was wrong about Anakin, meaning that human being's and human factors are not really the Yoda's stuff.

    If anything, Yoda gently cautions Obi-Wan before he learns the truth -
    Yoda is kind. That does not mean he is F.


    Obi-Wan: Wait, Master. There is something I must know. [inspects a security hologram]
    Yoda: You realize, of course, that if into the security recordings, you go, only pain, will you find.

    Interesting that Yoda doesn't just outrightly tell Obi-Wan the truth
    He says "you realize, of course". Yoda assume that Ob-Wan has ever understood what happened, so he doesn't need to say it. That's all. He is not F.


    Yoda is at the head of the Jedi Order as he has chosen to be and has worked to become - Yoda has chosen this aspect in his life.
    If we followed your statement,n every people who chosed to be a jedi would be a F. That can't be taken seriously either.
    [

    Moreover, we see other Jedi who are less inclined to focus on this in quite the amount Yoda does, including Anakin, who, as Yoda points out, is much more focused on possibilities and action, and Mace Windu, who is more quick to act and more combat-oriented. Yoda is particularly heady and conceptual, even for a Jedi.
    Yoda is heady and conceptual because he is INTP. INTPs are more heady and conceptual than INFJs.


    Speed. Whenever the Dark Side presence grows, his primary goal and taken-on responsibility is to quash it. He is trying to change the universe for the vast majority of the series.
    Actually, he felt the growth of the Dark Side during two centuries and never done anything to change that. He just waited to have more informations and see what could happen. Typical P.


    That is how he is people-oriented.
    You can be a teacher when you think that it is logical and useful. You doesn't need to be F.

    The organization involves itself in political dealings and is a peacekeeping organization in and of itself, necessitating political action. And he served as part of the Jedi High Council within the Galactic Republic. People and political.
    Here you are talking about the organisation, not about the character.



    [quote]Ahh yes and no. I said energy, not abstract connections(/quote]

    Energy is not specifically Fe related either.

    Ne users focus on how things are similar, and what kind of patterns those similar things create, and what those patterns indicate. I drew a parallel here between Yoda and Hitler (crazy, right?) because I saw they had some qualitative similarities, which is interesting because they actually led relatively similar lives, if you think about it, even though one is a fictional character on the good side and the other is a real human generally considered to be evil. That's Ne thought, for sure. But I'm not talking about that sort of thing. There have been many discussions on Fe vs Fi and how Fe users utilize distance between things and the nature of relational roles and such. Now, I'm not a Jedi, so I really don't know anything about using the Force, but -
    There's nothing similar between Yoda's life and Hitler's life. INTP utilize distance between things and the nature of relational role too.

    Yoda: You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.
    External perception. Expressed in an abstract way, so it's Ne.

    he makes it about being between things. And Ne doesn't concentrate so much on the betweens.
    Yoda understand what are the relationships between things, what is the "between" which make them related. Typically Ne.

    I think between-thinking is more an indicator of Fe than Ne -
    It would be more an indicator of Fe more than Ne if Yoda had value judgments about this. But he has not. He is all about perception. Therefor he is Ne>Fe.

    especially because in Yoda's galaxy, everything is imbued with the living energy of the Force. Ne thinking would probably be more about major ripples in the Force - but of course this is all conjecture.
    Yes.

    It's like if you said "ne can see the ripples in the water, but can't see the water". INTPs are driven to understand how things work even when it's a mystical flux of energy, and Ne helps to perceive that.



    To me, I see Yoda's leadership in the Jedi Order as being a huge indication of a new image / vision and his life as dedication to pursuing that new vision of a peaceful, harmonious world living in tandem with the Force.
    Yoda was traditionalistic and conservatives, he didn'nt try to create new image.



    If you're going to insult my ideas, at least spell your insults correctly. I assume your lack of serious response means that you cannot come up with a better argument.
    I'm not going to insult your ideas, just saying that what you say is confusing and not clear.

    Elsewhere you're right.

    intellectual masturbation
    Is that better.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

    Chaotic Neutral

    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

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    This thread wins pedantic thread of the week.

    For the record, I think Yoda is an INTP at the end of his 800 year old life with very well developed Fe. He's the kindly INTP grandfather allowing you to learn and figure things out yourself with only a few cryptic remarks to nudge you along the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    This thread wins pedantic thread of the week.

    For the record, I think Yoda is an INTP at the end of his 800 year old life with very well developed Fe. He's the kindly INTP grandfather allowing you to learn and figure things out yourself with only a few cryptic remarks to nudge you along the way.
    This is the best INTP Yoda statement on this thread, almost as good and yet more concise than what Slylights argued for Yoda being INFJ. Personally, I also as well as speed and maybe even Mal+ now say Yoda is INTP. We win!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    This is the best INTP Yoda statement on this thread, almost as good and yet more concise than what Slylights argued for Yoda being INFJ. Personally, I also as well as speed and maybe even Mal+ now say Yoda is INTP. We win!
    I would sooner give in to the dark side. Where are you getting this stuff? The same place SG gets his, I suspect.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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    My biggest issues, though, with seeing Yoda as INTP, remain that he seems to use far more Ni than Ne, and he seems to be more iNtuitive than Thinking. Kindly old INTP grandpa, sure, but you'd expect him to be wandering off to tinker with a new lightsaber design or something... for an old INTP, Yoda's still pretty damn one-track focused on being a Jedi leader. And putting yourself in "time-out" for screwing up the galaxy is totally NFJ-style behavior intervention. Finally... I see no Si whatsoever in him - provided we remember that Si is about utilizing gathered concrete data from past experience, and do not mistake an old introverted man's affinity for quiet, his homeworld, and familiar food as marks of Si thought!

    Maybe Yoda is NiTi, not unlike @Mal+.* :]



    *NiTi = still INFJ ;D

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