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Thread: Ted Bundy

  1. #161
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about regarding your last paragraph.


    I think most psychologists have discounted the whole memory implantation thing as bogus. If someone remembers something from childhood, no matter how tenuous or ephemeral or unreal, it is generally thought (the default, if you will) is that they need to be believed.

    Not really following you otherwise...
    Of course not. And that's why I consider some therapists to be evil.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Believe it, Friend. I know it fervently and solidly. It's probably the thing I *know* the best. Why would someone be born to do evil?
    Why does evil exist at all? Why isn’t everyone born immune to corruption? Why are some people born with mental or physical illness? Why is everything in the world not beautiful or perfect? People are just born the way they are, there is no hidden motive or great plan behind it all. A natural phenomenon has a cause but no reason unless humans have a say in the matter.

    Your reasoning seems to be:
    --> People can’t be born without empathy, so
    --> Psychopaths are always made by childhood abuse, so
    --> If we find no proof of abuse in a psychopath’s childhood, it is either because it is hidden from us or because we didn’t look deeply enough
    See the problem in your reasoning? You always start with the premise that psychopathy can’t possibly be genetic, without argument. And then try to make everything else fit this assumption. Saying you *know* something to be true isn't enough to convince people (or make it so).
    I say we know the brain can be born unhealthy (see autism, schizophrenia, etc…), that empathy is controlled by some area of the brain, and we know of no reason why that area of the brain would be magically protected from malformation or simply from being underdeveloped. So we should at least consider the possibility that babies can be born psychopaths unless proven otherwise.

    Have you read that article I posted? If you have, what do you think of Michael?

    Have you ever been around babies and children who have been raised in a healthy environment? If you had, you would know there is no way those children could grow up to be antisocial.
    Just because I know children in healthy environment that are not antisocial doesn't mean antisocial children in healthy environment can't exist.

    But yeah, I know the idea that some kids are born incapable of feeling love or compassion isn't pretty.

  3. #163
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    I should mention that Bundy was not psychotic or sociopathic. He had antisocial personality disorder.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Wikipedia isn't god. His mother moved away with him when he was four, marrying his step-dad when he was about 4 or 5. Anyway, he already had a fascination with knives at age three, and I'll read your post; however, the reason I believe him to be an ENFJ is because I think he had tertiary Se that he was in touch with at a young age, and it wasn't just something that came out in rage that was generally repressed like INxJs tend to be for the most part, Ted's Se seemed pretty active to me even before he snapped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It's weird to me that you focus on Ni-Fe-Se so much (like an ENFJ) but then at the end say Ti probably wasn't his inferior. His early fixation with not only pornography, but being brazen enough to be a peeping tom, and getting arrested twice for burglary in high school makes me think Se was his relief function. I also think he was able to form such a slick facade - even in high school when he said he didn't connect well to other children - and then later when he put on a show that people bought, that he was probably an Fe dom.

    I won't argue to the death over Ted Bundy but I do believe he was a socially maladjusted ENFJ.
    I focus a lot on the Ni-Fe-Se combination and how it applies to him, but this doesn't mean his Ti is the weakest. Ni-Fe and Ni-Se simply seems to have more "connections" between each other (perhaps due to the fact that Ni is a synthetizing function). Ti seems to work more often more independently, in order to verify logical consistency, find flaws in a plan, think through ideas and moderate Fe with logical reasoning, etc... Ti is simply more difficult to spot in a biography than any of the other function, particularly since it is introverted and tertiary.
    Anyway, watching that youtube video of Bundy, I really found that he used Ti way too easily for it to be his weak point.

    I think in many cases, the tertiary function is the less flagrant one in the personality, though not necessarily the weakest (think of the Robot-INTJ stereotype with tertiary Fi, or Si in INTP). The inferior, as a counter-weigh to the dominant, can have a great impact on the psyche. It often manifests in an all-or-nothing way, and can play a major role when making decisions because it has its own hungry needs that demand satisfaction: for Se it would be desire for riches and sophisticated goods, yearning for sensations, etc…
    I believe Bundy’s relation to his inferior was of this sort. It wasn’t controlled or healthy, more of a vice really (burglary, rape). Shadow-Se in unhealthy or stressed INJs can lead them down into a dark place full of drugs, sex, alcohol and pornography. Such bad SP slips would be damning in an individual as unstable as Bundy was.

    And I think I explained the way he used Ni-Fe-Se to charm everyone well enough in my other post, as an Ni-dom (project an image of self Ni-Fe, figure people out Ni-Se, manipulate them Fe). Do you disagree? Being good with people in that quiet, discreet way is characteristic of most INFJs (ENFJs are more flamboyant).

    (I won’t argue to the death over this either, but I find him fascinating and I like to study his behaviour! )

  5. #165
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Yet another logical fallacy. That one is called begging the question.

    Someone would be born to do evil because of innate problem areas in the brain related to a lack of inhibitory mechanisms and no innate predisposition toward emotional empathy.
    We are all born with the capability of doing evil. It's whether that gets turned on or not in certain individuals.

    It's like a person has a certain amount of natural armor (biology/genes), and then you have your environment either building that up (with nurturing), or tearing that down (with ANA); then you have the Devil and the evil of the world (other emotionally ill humans) actively finding weaknesses in the armor than can be destroyed, leaving one especially vulnerable.

    Now you will ask me to prove that abuse didn't exist in cases like Bundy's, or of Michael in the other story. But that is once again the argument from ignorance because it puts the burden on those claiming a negative. And since I can't prove that abuse didn't happen, somehow your theory is proved by arbitrary fiat.

    But all your years of counselling experience can't prove that abuse always existed in your patients or clients, especially when the possibility of planting false memories has been proven to exist. That one doubt is all it takes to disprove your theory.
    To prove there was no abuse is nearly impossible though. The only way to really get to the bottom of it is to either do IN DEPTH analysis with trained therapists specifically focused on assessing the presence or absence of child abuse, and in what forms; or doing prospective studies correlating mental well-being and environment. This is not fallacious thinking, Mal. Random folks who have no real understanding of child development (or abuse themselves!) saying that so-and-so ax murderer wasn't abused is just completely ridiculous, when I know otherwise from observing, studying, and experiencing normal human development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuttou View Post
    Why does evil exist at all?
    Because humans have free will. They can choose to harm each other, help each other, or do nothing.

    Why isn’t everyone born immune to corruption? Why are some people born with mental or physical illness?
    No one is born immune to corruption. See above. It's about quality and quantity of armor we each have.

    Genes. This is organic brain chemical [dis]orders I'm referring to. Schizophrenia (which is completely organic, which I'm still not convinced about personally, due to lack of knowledge of this specific disorder), and autism, etc., just color an individual differently, and make our interaction with them different than 'normal' people. Kind of like how Down's Syndrome children have a disorder, but still have a good purpose to serve in life and society.

    Organic disorders are much rarer than behavioral disorders. DSM lumps them together, erring on the side of saying behavioral disorders are organic. This is utter nonsense, and illustrative of just how ignorant we as a people are regarding the causation of mental illness.

    Why is everything in the world not beautiful
    ? Relative.

    or perfect?
    Because evil exists. And man has free will.

    People are just born the way they are,
    Which is inherently good. And prone to survival. And to desire the strongest emotion we can feel: Love.

    there is no hidden motive or great plan behind it all.
    Well, I believe in God. So I believe in Divine Determinism. And it's in line 100% with what I'm purporting here (I've seen nothing in 'real life' to dissuade me from believing man is inherently good, and made in God's image.

    A natural phenomenon has a cause but no reason unless humans have a say in the matter.
    Primitive brains (which is all babies have when they are born) seek only one thing: To be nurtured and taken care of in their own best interests. A mother's interests don't matter! A father's interests don't matter! Parents naturally should not only sacrifice for their babies, and children (until they are independent), but they are programmed to love them. Ask any mother or father carrying a baby (who isn't mentally ill) and she will tell you she loves her baby with her whole heart. That becomes even stronger at birth, and as the baby grows. That love is rather irrational if you think about it. It's all to grow a healthy new person. If that happens, that new person will not want to behave in antisocial ways, because it won't feel good. What feels good is to love and be loved.

    That is the natural process. If that is the natural process, then that means we are inherently about love and therefore, Good. If we are about Good, there can be no room for any inherent evil theory that you are proposing.

    Your reasoning seems to be:
    --> People can’t be born without empathy,
    True. Empathy or lack thereof is usually learned.

    so
    --> Psychopaths are always made by childhood abuse,
    Yes.

    so
    --> If we find no proof of abuse in a psychopath’s childhood, it is either because it is hidden from us or because we didn’t look deeply enough
    Yes.

    See the problem in your reasoning?
    No. I think it is very logical.

    You always start with the premise that psychopathy can’t possibly be genetic, without argument.
    When, how, or who would be an example then?

    I say we know the brain can be born unhealthy (see autism, schizophrenia, etc…),
    Yes. Organic conditions. Not necessarily unhealthy. Just different! Unhealthy, for the purposes of our discussion, would be a bending of that behavior to hurt another individual, and society at large. You are still equating organic brain disorders with antisocial disorders. Someone with an organic brain disorder might lack traditional empathy (autism), but they are not any more likely to become a sociopath--and maybe even less likely--than anyone else. Becoming a sociopath depends on their environment, just like everyone else.

    that empathy is controlled by some area of the brain,
    Empathy is inherent in us as humans, I agree. How much that is turned on or off is a product of our personalities and genes. Beyond that, behavior learned via environment.

    and we know of no reason why that area of the brain would be magically protected from malformation
    It might not be, especially illustrated by autism.

    So we should at least consider the possibility that babies can be born psychopaths unless proven otherwise.
    You are making too big a leap. Lacking empathy or not being strongly empathic is not what makes a psychopath. Psychopaths lack empathy, yes, but something else causes them to lack empathy. It is a fallacy to assume that lacking empathy makes a psychopath, just because psychopaths lack empathy. And that 'something else' that causes their lack of empathy, also causes them to become antisocial at high rates. Antisocial is not just lacking empathy, it's wanting to inflict harm, and lacking conscience for doing so.

    Have you read that article I posted? If you have, what do you think of Michael?
    Sorry, no. Can you relink?

    Just because I know children in healthy environment that are not antisocial doesn't mean antisocial children in healthy environment can't exist.
    I'd have to see it and have an awesome source, looking specifically for the presence or absence of abuse, to believe it.

    But yeah, I know the idea that some kids are born incapable of feeling love or compassion isn't pretty.
    If someone is born lacking this organically, then that is sad. Just like any genetic disorder is sad.

    But what is even sadder is when normal kids are exploited and lose their God given right to easily feel love and compassion.



    Armor can be rebuilt. Which is a testament to God's genius in how he made our psyches. All it takes to rebuild a healthy armor is love, healthy relationship (s), and consciousness that God can heal you. I doubt it's easy, which is unfortunately a huge part of the perpetuation of the problem, as humans are also inclined to economic efficiency, which doesn't necessarily lend itself to quality of life issues, especially those you have to work at.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  6. #166
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    We are all born with the capability of doing evil. It's whether that gets turned on or not in certain individuals.

    It's like a person has a certain amount of natural armor (biology/genes), and then you have your environment either building that up (with nurturing), or tearing that down (with ANA); then you have the Devil and the evil of the world (other emotionally ill humans) actively finding weaknesses in the armor than can be destroyed, leaving one especially vulnerable.
    To prove there was no abuse is nearly impossible though. The only way to really get to the bottom of it is to either do IN DEPTH analysis with trained therapists specifically focused on assessing the presence or absence of child abuse, and in what forms; or doing prospective studies correlating mental well-being and environment. This is not fallacious thinking, Mal. Random folks who have no real understanding of child development (or abuse themselves!) saying that so-and-so ax murderer wasn't abused is just completely ridiculous, when I know otherwise from observing, studying, and experiencing normal human development.
    I'm not saying that it's all biological, although it may be. I'm saying that there are born psychopaths. Perhaps if you can identify one early on, and if there are techniques for creating empathy when the brain has no innate facility for creating that kind of response, then I agree with you. But the ability to even identify such cases early on is still in its infancy. Psychologists have to work past the belief that it can't happen to children.

    So this random person is asking that you prove that such and such ax murderer was abused as a child. Pulling rank on me (a fallacy called "appeal to authority") won't help your case, although I'm sure you are surrounded by people at work who hold to the very same credo as you and also have years of experience in the therapy field. I would like to ask you to count the number of therapists (not random folk) who you know believe, and then ask yourself if it's logical to extrapolate from that small number to the thousands of trained and experienced therapists out there while you act as if agreement on this point is almost unanimous (a fallacy known as "ad populorum").
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #167
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I should mention that Bundy was not psychotic or sociopathic. He had antisocial personality disorder.
    I'm having trouble finding a definitive difference. The only half guesses I've found after looking around a bit are sociopaths/psychopaths have more a slightly intense cases of ASPD (I think Bundy would qualify here) and sociopaths/psychopaths are more prone toward criminal impulses (again, Bundy qualifies) and something about how ASPD can sometimes be learned from being with a bad group while socioathy/psychopathy is developed within one individual (Bundy acted alone, so he'd probably qualify for both labels by that measure).

    None of these differences seemed very heavily agreed upon. What, in your estimation, is the difference between antisocial and sociopath?
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  8. #168
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    I'm having trouble finding a definitive difference. The only half guesses I've found after looking around a bit are sociopaths/psychopaths have more a slightly intense cases of ASPD (I think Bundy would qualify here) and sociopaths/psychopaths are more prone toward criminal impulses (again, Bundy qualifies) and something about how ASPD can sometimes be learned from being with a bad group while socioathy/psychopathy is developed within one individual (Bundy acted alone, so he'd probably qualify for both labels by that measure).

    None of these differences seemed very heavily agreed upon. What, in your estimation, is the difference between antisocial and sociopath?
    I'm sure someone will correct me on this, but the main distinction is the age of onset of the respective disorders.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #169
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I'm not saying that it's all biological, although it may be. I'm saying that there are born psychopaths. Perhaps if you can identify one early on, and if there are techniques for creating empathy when the brain has no innate facility for creating that kind of response, then I agree with you. But the ability to even identify such cases early on is still in its infancy. Psychologists have to work past the belief that it can't happen to children.

    So this random person is asking that you prove that such and such ax murderer was abused as a child. Pulling rank on me (a fallacy called "appeal to authority") won't help your case, although I'm sure you are surrounded by people at work who hold to the very same credo as you and also have years of experience in the therapy field. I would like to ask you to count the number of therapists (not random folk) who you know believe, and then ask yourself if it's logical to extrapolate from that small number to the thousands of trained and experienced therapists out there while you act as if agreement on this point is almost unanimous (a fallacy known as "ad populorum").
    Children are not born psychopaths.

    Not sure if you read all my post, because you only quoted a tiny amount of it, but I think I made a pretty good argument for that which your response here fails to address. If you care to carry on this conversation with me, I need you to address all my points in my last post.

    I don't really want to get carried away in a fallacy exegesis here. I can look up fallacies on wiki just like you can. I think you are using a straw man fallacy to deter from the validity of my argument. So there.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  10. #170
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Children are not born psychopaths.

    Not sure if you read all my post, because you only quoted a tiny amount of it, but I think I made a pretty good argument for that which your response here fails to address. If you care to carry on this conversation with me, I need you to address all my points in my last post.

    I don't really want to get carried away in a fallacy exegesis here. I can look up fallacies on wiki just like you can. I think you are using a straw man fallacy to deter from the validity of my argument. So there.
    I didn't read the part not addressed to me. You'll just have to ask Michael if he was born a psychopath. Wait, that case doesn't count because something MUST have happened to him at an early age, correct? Correct.

    I'll admit that some fallacies I listed aren't formal fallacies, therefore they don't prove you wrong. So I'll list one on that is a formal fallacy - circular reasoning. I also sense evasion - the fact that you don't want to count the exact number of therapists who you know believe what you believe and report the number here, and then bowing out of the convo because - as I almost always do - I only quoted what I wanted to address. I thought I quoted the entire part addressed to me and not that other guy. Why should I respond to something that wasn't a response to me?

    "(or abuse themselves!) saying that so-and-so ax murderer wasn't abused is just completely ridiculous, when I know otherwise from observing, studying, and experiencing normal human development."

    "...just completely ridiculous" is not an argument, although it could be considered an attempt to bully someone into agreeing with you. And observing normal human development is not the topic here. Abnormal human development is the topic here.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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