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Thread: Winnie the Pooh

  1. #21
    Junior Member DynamicG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    "N"? Did I read a different version of the book when I was a kid? In the version I read (the original Winnie the Pooh, by A.A. Milne, as well as The House at Pooh's Corner), the characters did not just sit around talking about abstract possibilities all the time. They were pretty tuned in to their environment. They didn't seem to me to exhibit traits of the Idealist/Catalyst temperament either.

    C'mon, people, I know that it's a popular pastime to think you see "iNtuition" everywhere, and that it's common to believe that people who have a few thoughtful insights or a healthy imagination must therefore prefer iNtuition, but .... seriously. What I see most people describing as iNtuition isn't what either Carl Jung or Isabel Myers meant by it.

    Not to start an argument or anything, but can anyone show me quotes by way of evidence that any of the characters except for Eeyore (who really did spend a lot of time by himself wondering "Why" and "Wherefore" and "Inasmuch as Which") seriously thought less about the people and things in their world than about abstract meaning and significance and about helping the other characters realize their inborn potential?

    If Pooh and Piglet spend all day building a house for Eeyore or worrying about what he might like as a birthday present, or looking for something that Tiggers like to eat, or playing with Baby Roo, or wondering if the presence of bees near a tree means they have a hive in it, or pretending to be a little cloud so as to fool the bees into thinking your'e not after their honey, or going on a walking "expotition" to the North Pole, or imagining monsters in the woods and going hunting for them, or even making up poetry that's mostly just harmonic use of language (see David Keirsey's explanation of the SP temperament - NF poetry is heavily metaphorical, SP poetry is harmonic), all of that's very, very concrete. Even making up fictitious monsters and naming them Woozles and Heffalumps and going "hunting" for them is about using your imagination concretely, not abstractly. If Piglet daydreams about heroically saving the day by exhibiting physical bravery, that's a concrete daydream about performing concrete actions at a soon-to-be concrete moment in time, not about envisioning what could become true in the far-off future.

    If you guys can point to specific paragraphs from the books to prove that those animals in fact spent most of their time pondering the nature of evil vs. good or devising abstract models that help explain human/animal behavior, I'll change my mind.

    Until then.. sorry, but I don't buy your type guesses.

    Sarah
    (children's librarian) ISFP
    I think you are very right in that people tend to see Intuition in too many places, but I take issue with many of your assumptions here.

    If I'm reading correctly here, do all intuitive children hold up in their rooms trapped in their own heads? Please delineate what, in your definition, would be intuitive 'play'?

    Perhaps I spent too much time playing outside with my friends when I was little, but I think I was doing this whole intuition thing wrong.

  2. #22
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    Piglet is ISFJ, I think.

  3. #23
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    sarah, i was concerned about the physical too. especially around my more S friends. piglet to me is very dreamy and fits the infp description.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    sarah, i was concerned about the physical too. especially around my more S friends. piglet to me is very dreamy and fits the infp description.
    What?? How is he dreamy? I'm not seeing it. Maybe I need to go re-watch and re-read some Winnie the Pooh. Could you point it out, please?

    Edit: Are you talking about him daydreaming about being heroic?


    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    Piglet is ISFJ, I think.
    *looks at GZA's avatar* I trust your judgement.

    =P

  5. #25
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynamicG View Post
    I think you are very right in that people tend to see Intuition in too many places, but I take issue with many of your assumptions here.

    If I'm reading correctly here, do all intuitive children hold up in their rooms trapped in their own heads? Please delineate what, in your definition, would be intuitive 'play'?

    Perhaps I spent too much time playing outside with my friends when I was little, but I think I was doing this whole intuition thing wrong.
    I hope nothing I said upset you. From what I understand, unless there’s some all-compelling reason to do otherwise, people tend to gravitate towards pastimes that allow them to use their preferred cognitive functions. The reasons why anyone might, for example, write poetry, or take an art class, or start learning a sport, or are as varied as the people doing them.

    I think people look for evidence of their own type everywhere, and that this is probably very normal and expected. I’d love to believe the world is full of healthy, well-adjusted _SFP people, and I’m guessing you’d like to believe the world is full of healthy, well-adjusted _NFPs. It’s flattering and makes us feel good about our temperament, our type, and our cognitive function preferences. I know that whether or not my type guesses are correct doesn’t affect my ability to be healthy and well-adjusted.

    I’m not really sure there’s a good way to differentiate “N” imagination from “S” imagination. I’ve seen people attempt that, but their theories never match up well with reality. For example, contrary to popular opinion, you can indeed prefer Sensing and have fun imagining a world that doesn’t exist inside your mind. It’s just that when it comes down to what cognitive preferences you prefer and trust using on a daily basis to help you make decisions you care about, you’re going to either choose introverted or extraverted Sensing if you prefer Sensing, and either extraverted or introverted iNtuition if you prefer iNtuition.

    Environment also plays a big part in the way we develop. If you had friends who preferred sensing, naturally you’re going to want to try your best to fit in with them. People who prefer Sensing but who have parents who prefer iNtuition are equally as influenced. Both my SJ sister and I grew up in a family where we were encouraged to use our imaginations (by both my ISFJ father and my _NFJ mother), and most of our play centered around making up stories. With regards to your comment, I would expect that extraverts who fit the NF temperament would NOT spend lots of time in their rooms by themselves, and would actively seek out opportunities to engage in play with others, regardless of what the nature of the play is like.

    I was making a claim that many people of all types find these Winnie the Pooh stories are charming, and yet nothing in the stories has little if anything to do with the Idealist (NF) temperament pattern outlined by Keirsey, Berens and other type theorists. Below are a couple of quotes from their websites:

    Keirsey: Idealists [NFs], as a temperament, are passionately concerned with personal growth and development. Idealists strive to discover who they are and how they can become their best possible self -- always this quest for self-knowledge and self-improvement drives their imagination. And they want to help others make the journey. Idealists are naturally drawn to working with people, and whether in education or counseling, in social services or personnel work, in journalism or the ministry, they are gifted at helping others find their way in life, often inspiring them to grow as individuals and to fulfill their potentials.

    Berens: [NFs] core needs are for the meaning and significance that come from having a sense of purpose and working toward some greater good. They need to have a sense of unique identity. They value unity, self-actualization, and authenticity. People of this temperament prefer cooperative interactions with a focus on ethics and morality. They tend to trust their intuition and impressions first and then seek to find the logic and the data to support them. Given their need for empathic relationships, they learn more easily when they can relate to the instructor and the group.
    Traits like empathy, altruism, identity-seeking, and a drive to seek out the meaning and purpose in whatever they encounter show up early on in children who fit the NF pattern because they are essential to an NF’s core of being. When someone tells me that a famous person or a book character or whomever is an NF type but this person does NOT exhibit the pattern of traits associated with the Idealist temperament, then I don’t buy the idea of their being an NF. Temperament rules, in other words. It isn’t possible to be an NF and yet fit better with the SP, SJ or NT temperament patterns.

    But getting back to Winnie the Pooh, did any of those characters spend a significant part of their storylines wondering how they can gain self-knowledge on their quest for self-actualization? Not to my knowledge. You, however, may have read lots of things into the stories that I didn't. I don't tend to trust my iNtuition, and frankly I stink at using Ne.

    If you feel you do access your sensing function quite a lot, then that’s wonderful – you sound like a very balanced person. But…. (and please understand I don’t mean this offensively).. I’m willing to bet that it only feels that way to you. If you actually preferred extraverted Sensing like I do, you’d be not just noticing many more opportunities for taking action in the present moment, but actively taking advantage of them, as well as effortlessly noticing everything in your environment in much greater detail. I know this is laughable, but I feel incredibly “deep” if I spend an hour in any given day talking about metaphysical stuff with my mom. Doesn’t mean I’m actually all that "deep" to someone like you. An NF might well find it hysterical that it took me 37 years to recognize patterns of behavior and figure out some life truths that they already knew about as children.

    I daydreamed constantly as a child, and I most definitely prefer Sensing, and fit the pattern of the ISFP type and the SP temperament far better than the INFP type and the NF temperament. Other people I know who seem definitely to fit the Guardian (SJ) temperament also daydream and use their imaginations. For this reason, I just don’t believe anybody who tries to tell me that the only imaginative and “daydreamy” people in this world are those who prefer iNtuition. It’s Just Not True. Also, I totally agree with you that it's Just Not True that people who prefer iNtuition spend all their time living in their heads. Both stereotypes are riduclous and don't do justice to how complex we are as human beings.

    As for book and movie characters.... well, I think when it comes right down to it, characters are mostly just not type-able. They can take on any identity the author feels like giving them, whether that fits with type theory or not. It's fun to think about, but not really worth much else.

    (if you actually read all of that, then you are a very thoughtful, patient person. I’m stepping off my soapbox now…)

  6. #26
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Ah, but books where characters are true to type are some of the best reads out there. try anything for young adults by Cynthia Voight, for example.

    I'll chime in that Pooh is definitely ISFP in my book for reasons given in the threads above. As is pointed out. Sensing types dream and imagine but usually within the realms of practicality rather than realms that defy reality.
    edcoaching

  7. #27
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Sensing types dream and imagine but usually within the realms of practicality rather than realms that defy reality.
    That's very well put, I need to remember that when I'm trying to explain the difference to people.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  8. #28
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Jeffster, you can quote it any time...
    edcoaching

  9. #29
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Wait Tigger is like ENTP/ESFP/ENFP/ESTP all at the same time.

    Christopher Robin is INFJ? ISFJ? ENFJ? ESFJ? INFP? ISTJ?

  10. #30
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine View Post
    I hadn't thought about it but Sarah has some really good points. There's a lot of S in the whole show. Most definitely harmonic over idealist. Heh even their daydreams are concrete.
    Yeah I totally didn't mean concrete. I meant what the people above me said about S daydreaming. Within the realm of practicality and reality.

    I IZ BAD WIF WORDS.

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