Frank Herbert

[Mal12345]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_herbert

INTP or INTJ?

 

[rav3n]

INTP. He's not trapped in one set of Fi values, preferring to turn chaos into order back into chaos back into order.

 

[Mal12345]

Some people prefer to watch videos of people, so here's a good one of Herbert:

 

[Mal12345]

INTP. He's not trapped in one set of Fi values, preferring to turn chaos into order back into chaos back into order.

I don't quite get what you're saying, but that seems to be a rather indirect way of going about this. I posted the Wiki article first because I see a direct answer there.

 

[Asterion]

I'm not sure if there's enough information available to type him, but he seems more likely to be an INTP. He prefers to leave questions open and unanswered, and as far as I remember that's one of the main traits of Perception.

Loved Dune so much, grew up on it.

 

[rav3n]

I don't quite get what you're saying, but that seems to be a rather indirect way of going about this. I posted the Wiki article first because I see a direct answer there.

The basis of my ass-essment are from his novels and how he twists and turns perspectives. Hold on, that might be Ni. And yet, he's non-conclusive, always leaving the door open for future possibilities.



Your guess.

 

[Mal12345]

I'm not sure if there's enough information available to type him, but he seems more likely to be an INTP. He prefers to leave questions open and unanswered, and as far as I remember that's one of the main traits of Perception.

Loved Dune so much, grew up on it.

I did too.

You're getting closer, I think. Consider the fact that Perception is also a function of PI, and INTP is not a PI type despite the fact that both letters are contained in the type.

 

[Mal12345]

The basis of my ass-essment are from his novels and how he twists and turns perspectives. Hold on, that might be Ni. And yet, he's non-conclusive, always leaving the door open for future possibilities.

Excellent.

 

[KDude]

I like the books. I don't know a thing about the man though. I think Paul Atreides could be INTJ or INFJ at least.

And Herbert stands out among sci-fi writers for not... really being sci-fi. I wouldn't be surprised if George Lucas got a lot of ideas from him. Dune seems almost fantasy like, rather than sci-fi. Much like Star Wars. But to get to my point as far as type goes, he doesn't really entertain/speculate typical science fiction "possibilities" and scenarios like I imagine a Ne writer would. His worlds are a bit retro and mystical. Space Travel is based on psychic abilities, and Artificial Intelligence is banned. The one type of technology that he explores more is genetics.. but it's still mostly about natural breeding processes. There's one other race that's more into genetic manipulation, and he paints them in a bad light. There's very little addressed about the potential of "objects" and manipulating the world.. but much about the potential of one's mind and perceptions. Maybe it's nothing though.

 

[Mal12345]

I like the books. I don't know a thing about the man though. I think Paul Atreides could be INTJ or INFJ at least.

And Herbert stands out among sci-fi writers for not... really being sci-fi. I wouldn't be surprised if George Lucas got a lot of ideas from him. Dune seems almost fantasy like, rather than sci-fi. Much like Star Wars. But to get to my point as far as type goes, he doesn't really entertain/speculate typical science fiction "possibilities" and scenarios like I imagine a Ne writer would. His worlds are a bit retro and mystical. Space Travel is based on psychic abilities, and Artificial Intelligence is banned. The one type of technology that he explores more is genetics.. but it's still mostly about natural breeding processes. There's one other race that's more into genetic manipulation, and he paints them in a bad light. There's very little addressed about the potential of "objects" and manipulating the world.. but much about the potential of one's mind and perceptions. Maybe it's nothing though.

Jenaphor wrote: "And yet, he's non-conclusive, always leaving the door open for future possibilities." She is debating with the idea that Herbert may have been a "non-conclusive" INTP, yet she's really showing the Pi characteristic of the INTJ.

The INTJ does not desire an intellectual framework as does the INTP, but works best staying within the shifting realm of Ni possibilities. Intuition is a form of perception, Pi (this is just the abstract form substituting for both the Ni and Si functions). The Ni does not construct and apply Ti intellectual formulas, but only finds various possibilities in their own heads. So they are - more accurately - called INTp in Socionics theory, the small p to reflect the dominant focus on a perceptual faculty (N or S).

In the novel Dune, superficially there is the theme focusing around future possibilities - the ability to see into the future. But with Paul it's not the simple kind of psychic predictions, it's more like a chess game, not a psychic power as you indicated. It's a game in which the board is infinitely complex. (Paul always saw the course of history as a kind of play with players acting out roles, with himself as one of the participants.) No rational Ti thought-process could possibly encompass such an infinitely expanding scheme, so a special form of Ni intuition is required, enhanced of course by the drug "Melange." (And it requires a certain genetic manipulation - as Farad'n and Alia learned, taking the drug does nothing for your mental abilities if you're not the right person for it.) Thus, in the construction of the novels, the idea of a breeding program was required.

But there is an element more important than this which you brought up: the lack of future technology, albeit with a dependence on certain kinds of technology. There are no cute Star Wars robots in the Dune world. There are, instead, remote-controlled poisonous hunter-seekers and the like. And futuristic space travel is required. Robots are a thing of the far past, the future is for the development and evolution of human capability. What purpose does this serve? "Herbert deliberately suppressed technology in his Dune universe so he could address the future of humanity, rather than the future of humanity's technology. Dune considers the way humans and their institutions might change over time." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_herbert And so Herbert took science fiction in a completely different, non-Ti, direction.

 

[Mal12345]

George Lucas paid a lot of tribute to Herbert's Dune. Tatooine/Arrakis. Star Wars did not need a desert planet, the choice would be completely random to this story except for the Dune mimickry. Wasn't Luke's adoptive father a moisture farmer? I'm sure you can easily find other similarities for yourself. The one major difference is Herbert's complete lack of computers, robots, and AI technology.

"...And if this still is not enough for you to believe that without Dune, there would actually be no Star Wars, I recommend this last piece of information to you: The original
script for Star Wars was rejected by the studio because it was almost exactly the
same story as Dune."
http://scytale.name/files/doc/essays/dune-starwars/dune-starwars.pdf
(Lucas threw in lots of AI in order to distance himself from the idea of Dune plagiarism.)

 

[Qlip]

I happen to be rereading Dune right now, it has a very Ni feeling. I don't know what relationships authors have towards the personalities of their works.

[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] mentioned that the Ni was open ended, but I wonder. I mean, there was never an obvert message to the stories, but it seems like everything in Ni-Te-ing itself to some in-plot conclusion. Take the God Emperor as an example. Also, obvert messages in Science Fiction is usually avoided. And, I notice that in conversation here, INTJs will do a lot to make their obvert points undeniably evident, only for me (and others) to have no idea what the heck they're saying. So, I may have to keep that in mind while rereading Dune, if Frank is INTJ.

Anyway, I'm a huge fan of Herbert's works.

 

[KDude]

I mentioned that the Ni was open ended, but I wonder. I mean, there was never an obvert message to the stories, but it seems like everything in Ni-Te-ing itself to some in-plot conclusion..

The message is that humanity keeps repeating the same patterns. I think? The plot conclusion is to get rid of that fate. Paul doesn't see it at first. His story is a typical hero's story.. until he realizes heroes ultimately end up as tyrants. He doesn't have the balls to do what it takes to change it, but his son does. And ultimately, at the end of that road his son insures people will long for chaos and the unknown.

 

[Qlip]

The message is that humanity keeps repeating the same patterns. I think? The plot conclusion is to get rid of that fate. Paul doesn't see it at first. His story is a typical hero's story.. until he realizes heroes ultimately end up as tyrants. He doesn't have the balls to do what it takes to change it, but his son does. And ultimately, at the end of that road his son insures people will long for chaos and the unknown.

It's been a while since I've reread the entire series. This sounds partially right, but I think Leto's worries were that people would stagnate and contract and die, which is why Leto engineered his multi-millenial reign of boredom and tension. Or, I may not be remembering correctly.

Maybe from an MBTI POV the theme all together is you can Ni yourself to death when you deny unimagined possibilites. This sounds possibly like the work of a healthy INTJ.

 

[Ginkgo]

The basis of my ass-essment are from his novels and how he twists and turns perspectives. Hold on, that might be Ni. And yet, he's non-conclusive, always leaving the door open for future possibilities.



Your guess.

Fun.

 

[KDude]

It's been a while since I've reread the entire series. This sounds partially right, but I think Leto's worries were that people would stagnate and contract and die, which is why Leto engineered his multi-millenial reign of boredom and tension. Or, I may not be remembering correctly.

Maybe from an MBTI POV the theme all together is you can Ni yourself to death when you deny unimagined possibilites. This sounds possibly like the work of a healthy INTJ.

I don't remember everything either, but I don't think he was merely worried. I think his prescience saw some kind of end of humanity, if they didn't break certain patterns. They needed to evolve... in ways that even he didn't know. If he did know, then there was a problem. Their destiny had to be outside of his vision completely.

 

[Ginkgo]

Jenaphor wrote: "And yet, he's non-conclusive, always leaving the door open for future possibilities." She is debating with the idea that Herbert may have been a "non-conclusive" INTP, yet she's really showing the Pi characteristic of the INTJ.

The INTJ does not desire an intellectual framework as does the INTP, but works best staying within the shifting realm of Ni possibilities. Intuition is a form of perception, Pi (this is just the abstract form substituting for both the Ni and Si functions). The Ni does not construct and apply Ti intellectual formulas, but only finds various possibilities in their own heads. So they are - more accurately - called INTp in Socionics theory, the small p to reflect the dominant focus on a perceptual faculty (N or S).

In the novel Dune, superficially there is the theme focusing around future possibilities - the ability to see into the future. But with Paul it's not the simple kind of psychic predictions, it's more like a chess game, not a psychic power as you indicated. It's a game in which the board is infinitely complex. (Paul always saw the course of history as a kind of play with players acting out roles, with himself as one of the participants.) No rational Ti thought-process could possibly encompass such an infinitely expanding scheme, so a special form of Ni intuition is required, enhanced of course by the drug "Melange." (And it requires a certain genetic manipulation - as Farad'n and Alia learned, taking the drug does nothing for your mental abilities if you're not the right person for it.) Thus, in the construction of the novels, the idea of a breeding program was required.

But there is an element more important than this which you brought up: the lack of future technology, albeit with a dependence on certain kinds of technology. There are no cute Star Wars robots in the Dune world. There are, instead, remote-controlled poisonous hunter-seekers and the like. And futuristic space travel is required. Robots are a thing of the far past, the future is for the development and evolution of human capability. What purpose does this serve? "Herbert deliberately suppressed technology in his Dune universe so he could address the future of humanity, rather than the future of humanity's technology. Dune considers the way humans and their institutions might change over time." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_herbert And so Herbert took science fiction in a completely different, non-Ti, direction.

The prescient vision resembles Ni more than Ne.

 

[Mal12345]

I happen to be rereading Dune right now, it has a very Ni feeling. I don't know what relationships authors have towards the personalities of their works.

[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] mentioned that the Ni was open ended, but I wonder. I mean, there was never an obvert message to the stories, but it seems like everything in Ni-Te-ing itself to some in-plot conclusion. Take the God Emperor as an example. Also, obvert messages in Science Fiction is usually avoided. And, I notice that in conversation here, INTJs will do a lot to make their obvert points undeniably evident, only for me (and others) to have no idea what the heck they're saying. So, I may have to keep that in mind while rereading Dune, if Frank is INTJ.

Anyway, I'm a huge fan of Herbert's works.

The Ni in INTJ is open-ended and perceptive. A closed form of perception is not perception. You counter-argue that the plot of Dune comes to a conclusion. Well yes, otherwise it wouldn't be a novel, although you must see that many elements to the story are open-ended. For example, Paul walking off blindly into the desert leaves an opening. The many times when there was no corpus delicti (as with Paul and Jessica twice in Dune, and then Leto in Children of Dune) leaves an opening.

But that's not the point anyway, which is that evolution is an open-ended process. The ultimate goal of the Golden Path is to obviate mankind's ultimate stagnation, devolution, and then extinction, for which there can be no conclusion because the Golden Path is eternal.

 

[Totenkindly]

Jennifer mentioned that the Ni was open ended, but I wonder. I mean, there was never an obvert message to the stories, but it seems like everything in Ni-Te-ing itself to some in-plot conclusion.

What was the context of that statement?

IRL, Ni is always paired with Fe or Te, so it's going to manifest with a closure pattern... you'll be seeing it expressed through one or the other, typically.

 

[KDude]

What was the context of that statement?

IRL, Ni is always paired with Fe or Te, so it's going to manifest with a closure pattern... you'll be seeing it expressed through one or the other, typically.

I don't think it's a straight kind of closure. This isn't the best illustration, but I think it's more like someone who has a knack for making up words. And the same goes for their general problem solving. They might compound altering views and introduce something new.