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  1. #61
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kephalos View Post
    I have to confess that the list of prominent libertarians that has emerged so far is not very appealing. This is a list I myself find more appealing, although they reveal my preferences, almost all of them free market type intellectuals:

    -- F.A. von Hayek
    -- Ludwig von Mises
    -- Robert Lucas (?)
    -- Thomas Sowell
    -- Murray Rothbard
    -- Milton Friedman
    -- Bryan Caplan
    -- Steve Horwitz
    -- Henry Hazlitt
    -- Peter Boettke
    -- Anthony de Jasay
    -- Frank Knight
    Yeah, isn't this the type of libertarian Speed is talking about? And then people have the nerve to be bringing up Bakunin and Proudhon (and that one list with Bertrand Russell), and Brad Pitt, of all people, before these guys...
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    So is our hit list complete yet?

  3. #63
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Did someone mention Bill Maher already? I think he's the most prominent "celebrity" libertarian.

    Albeit a liberally minded libertarian (so many libertarians just focus on economic issues and/or gun control it seems. He covers individual freedoms on a wider spectrum that most libertarians don't bother with).

  4. #64
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Libertarians, otherwise known as bitches who owe humanity taxes.

  5. #65
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Libertarians, otherwise known as bitches who owe humanity taxes.
    no one owes anyone taxes. people have a right to freedom and personal space, no one is entitled to anything else or responsible for anything else. the ideal society is one of interdependence and cooperation, not servitude and debt obligation
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  6. #66
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Kenshin Himura
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  7. #67
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    no one owes anyone taxes. people have a right to freedom and personal space, no one is entitled to anything else or responsible for anything else. the ideal society is one of interdependence and cooperation, not servitude and debt obligation
    No one is free in the marketplace when their very life, liberty and happiness can be bought and sold. How is the relationship between the tax man any different from that of the employer?

    Capitalism is a system requiring and encouraging servility. The ideal society you describe of interdependence and co-operation IS socialism, freed from servility or anything but reciprocal obligations, that IS socialism. You're close but you still dont get it elfboy.

  8. #68
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No one is free in the marketplace when their very life, liberty and happiness can be bought and sold. How is the relationship between the tax man any different from that of the employer?

    Capitalism is a system requiring and encouraging servility. The ideal society you describe of interdependence and co-operation IS socialism, freed from servility or anything but reciprocal obligations, that IS socialism. You're close but you still dont get it elfboy.
    um let's see, if you don't like a job, you can get another one or better yet, make another one. this power of choice is the reason why employees are treated so much better than peasants who were starved out for decades and forced to eat their own children. there is no such thing as reciprocal obligations. socialism views people as mere parts of a whole with no inherent, individual value.
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  9. #69
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I'd create a famous socialists thread but I'd be the only one able to mention anyone and therefore there's no real sense in which they'd be famous.

    The word socialist is only used in a prejorative sense now anyway.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    um let's see, if you don't like a job, you can get another one or better yet, make another one. this power of choice is the reason why employees are treated so much better than peasants who were starved out for decades and forced to eat their own children. there is no such thing as reciprocal obligations. socialism views people as mere parts of a whole with no inherent, individual value.
    The reason is years of socialist agitation and class struggles which have caused enough compromises to become embedded to make life decent for those in the developed world and greater and greater surpluses meaning that the lot of the least was improved without the lot of the greatest being much effected (also a socialist insight into the development of affluent societies).

    So far as there being no such thing as reciprocal obligations well Marcel Maus and a lot of anthropologists (not even socialists) disagree, mind you their predictions about what would happen if those same time honoured norms were discarded are pretty much coming to pass so not surprised you cant tell.

    The final remark demonstrates nothing but ignorance of socialism, where'd you even get that? The whole socialist criticism of individualism isnt that its wrong per se but phony so long as its the preserve of a precious few, which is it in a dollar democracy, this is true of ALL socialism in the western humanist school of thought, I'm not so sure about the Chinese example, you're talking about a completely different cultural landscape and heritage there.

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