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  1. #101
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Not all Js are neat or organized.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #102
    Senior Member Mr Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Not all Js are neat or organized.
    Wasn't there a thread trying to clarify that myth?

    Attention people!

    Types are not determined by I/E, N/S, F/T, P/J!!!! That's simply how they are represented.

    Type with Te, Ti, Fe, Fi, Ne, Ni, Se, Si please

    I know the majority of the people here understand that...but not everybody, and it irks me.
    But sir, your opinion is wrong.
    TANSTAAFL!

  3. #103
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    Default I hear these languages:

    McCain (ISTP) speaks Se (as does George W Bush, ESFP)

    Obama (INFP) speaks Ne (as does Bill Clinton, ENTP)

    Hillary Clinton speaks Te


    My two cents.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guest View Post
    McCain (ISTP) speaks Se (as does George W Bush, ESFP)

    Obama (INFP) speaks Ne (as does Bill Clinton, ENTP)

    Hillary Clinton speaks Te


    My two cents.
    Bill Clinton is no kind of a Rational! He's a totally classic ESFP - so much so that jokes about channeling his Inner Elvis abound in my circles. What you all are seeing as Ne is actually a strong Fe combined with a high IQ. Attention: not all bright people are Ns.

    Bush strikes me as ESTP all the way. F? If you mean his "devotion to values", that's an SJ exoskeleton provided by his preacher and his wife and grasped at with all the fervor of an alcoholic at the altar.

    Obama, now, there's a fellow NT. A guy who, as you said, speaks Ne. As do I and I'm INTP.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
    Bill Clinton is no kind of a Rational! He's a totally classic ESFP - so much so that jokes about channeling his Inner Elvis abound in my circles. What you all are seeing as Ne is actually a strong Fe combined with a high IQ. Attention: not all bright people are Ns.

    Bush strikes me as ESTP all the way. F? If you mean his "devotion to values", that's an SJ exoskeleton provided by his preacher and his wife and grasped at with all the fervor of an alcoholic at the altar.

    Obama, now, there's a fellow NT. A guy who, as you said, speaks Ne. As do I and I'm INTP.
    Bill Clinton most certainly is a rational, and a very clever one at that. He is the consummate politician, a master of spin, and absolutely on top of his game. Acquaintances (the example who comes to mind is Alan Greenspan, clearsighted ISTJ and a brilliant man in his own right) say the most striking things about Bill Clinton are his intense intellectual curiosity and his ability to understand complex theories almost instantly, find their ramifications, and explore them in new ways. Clinton loves being with people (is strongly extroverted) and is able to present ideas in ways that are acceptable to a wide variety of viewpoints (uses Ne to understand F-based logic). He shows a decent amount of Fe/Fi in his compassion for other people, but I have yet to see him make an F-based _decision_. As for Se, I don't see this at all. None of his many infamous pleasure-seeking activities were purely physical. All involve/d some aspect of status, power dynamic, shared ideas, and/or social connection.

    Contrast this with George W. Bush, whose most well-developed function is Se. Bush enjoys the fresh air of his ranch, running around DC, etc., much more than sitting around the White House turning over ideas. One of my favorite illustrative stories is this one: Bush had a whole morning to interview John Roberts before nominating him to lead our country's judicial system, and what did he ask Mr. Roberts about? Sports and exercise. On this basis, he could assess Mr. Roberts character and make his decision. Not that Bush is particularly comfortable making decisions...

    ... Which makes it difficult to assign a J-function. On the whole, I think your guess is better than mine (especially if you have some positive evidence of his using Ti). I see very little Fi in him.

    And then there is Obama. Yes, his Ne function is very impressive. Even his Ti is well-developed. But nowhere in public life will you find a figure making such profound and continuous use of Fi. Most of his major speeches involve (1) explaining the emotionally-influenced logic behind different points of view, (2) showing how individual experience leads people with similar valuing processes to come to different opinions about legal, social, and political priorities, and (3) using those valuing processes to craft political goals that most voters can agree on.

    And finally, a question: Hillary Clinton= xxTJ. What are xx?
    Last edited by Guest; 04-13-2008 at 11:17 PM. Reason: clarification

  6. #106
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    McCain is an Extrovert for sure.
    I dunno, I would imagine that smart Artisans would be able to understand complex theories in an instant too. However, I could see ENFP. I'm not sure of the T though..

    Obama, can't see anything else put ENFP to be honest. He's an Idealist, not a Rational.

  7. #107
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Who in the hell renamed this thread? This is most certainly not representative of the posts in here.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  8. #108
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    It looks like another thread was merged together with it at some point and it took on that name... but I agree, I think the name of the thread should be changed back.
    ANFP:
    Extraversion (52%) ---- Introversion (48%)
    Sensing (26%) ---- iNtuition (74%)
    Thinking (16%) ---- Feeling (84%)
    Judging (5%) ---- Perceiving (95%)

    9w1 so/sx/sp

  9. #109
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    personalityzone.com has Obama as an INTJ.
    Rating The Candidates 7 – Personality As The Differentiator

    Someone suggested that Obama is more likely an extravert than an introvert due to his social nature.

    Here were the comments from Keirsey and Kip (the guy who wrote the article)

    Keirsey: "There are many differences between Keirsey and Myers. One is that Keirsey has little use for Extraversion and Introversion. He uses the concepts of Expressive and Attentive. A Fieldmarshal Rational correlates to Myers' ENTJ, but the Expressive Coordinator (a FieldMarshal) does not have to be "social." Good examples of Fieldmarshals are George C. Marshall and Douglas MacArthur that were mobilizers but would not be considered particularly "social." The Myers E/I doesn't make as much sense for the Rational temperament."

    Kip: "Here's an interesting quote from The Washington Post's Howard Kurtz who has been covering the Obama campaign. "In an age of all-out political warfare," Kurtz wrote recently, "the Obama campaign is a bit of an odd duck: It is not obsessed with winning each news cycle. The Illinois senator remains a remote figure to those covering him, and his team, while competent and professional, makes only spotty attempts to drive its preferred story lines in the press." This describes an INTJ much more than ENTJ to me."

    Kip: "Republican Senator Richard Lugar said about him, “At certain points in history, certain people are the ones that are most likely to have the vision or imagination or be able to identify talent and to manage other people's ideas. And I think he does this well." These are traits often used to describe NTJ Rationals, but he has used them in creating an image of caring and connecting – image traits that come most naturally to Artisans such as Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton, but due to the “software” of his character, seem to have become more natural to Obama than most Rationals."

    Question though, couldn't this describe an Idealist too?

    Keirsey brings up a possible reason for why the Rational Obama could seem Idealist.

    Keirsey: "A small note regarding Obama character, I suspect that his Idealism was highly influenced by his mother. She was a clear Idealist, most likely a Counselor Idealist."

    I still think Obama is an NF but Kip has a good argument.. at least for Obama being an XNXJ of some sort. To be fair, one of the main arguments for Obama being a XXXP is his talk of change. Judgers don't mind change.. as long as they are the ones making the changes!

    Also love or hate Hillary, she's an NT not an SJ. Her whole life has been a 'strategy' to become President herself. The fact that she is a strong Thinker and Judger and is too busy trying to nitpick every flaw in Obama could be her downfall in the remaining Democratic primaries.

    McCain, I think there is no doubt that he is an ESTP. Just please don't be one of these people who is like "LOL!! McCain=Bush!! Bad for country!!" I know of a lot of die-hard conservatives who actually can't stand McCain. Of course, that is the reason why he won the primary. He's the only Republican I can stand actually but I feel that his platform has become more 'conservative' as campaigning has gone on. This is something that comes naturally for an Artisan.

  10. #110
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    I think Obama is an idealist, but an introverted one-maybe INFJ. Hillary could be INTJ.
    Obama's comment about small-town Americans is a good indicator of why INFJ might be appropriate. It's a classically unrealistic but thought-provoking (whether good or bad) Ni-dominant statement, combined with the Fe tendency to broadly and imaginatively ascribe emotions to those whose opinions they don't understand. It also seems like an idea he came up with himself, which shows that he actually thinks about those things without provocation, like an introvert.

    Oh, and I can't stand the guy, so this is the most objective assessment I can manage.
    I don't wanna!

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