Abraham Lincoln

[Craft]

Is anyone here knowledgeable about this person, and could you give your opinions on his type?

 

[Sniffles]

IIRC, he's often classifed as INTJ.

 

[Sarcasticus]

INTP seems to be the consensus of opinions I've read.

 

[Totenkindly]

He's not very J whatsoever, and did the very INTP-ish thing of agonizing over what decisions he was forced to make, according to the two bios I've read. He also had a lot of trouble determining what level of involvement he would make in running the war, wanting to hand over power to his generals but being very unhappy when his generals did things that he thought did not make sense and/or violated how he thought the war should be approached. (he so obviously wanted to leap in and just issue commands, then would rein himself in, and back and forth... just make a decision!)

This was easily the best bio I've seen:
http://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-David-Herbert-Donald/dp/068482535X

I consider the Gettysburg Address to be one of the most beautifully concise speeches I've ever read -- capturing the content of the situation into the shortest amount of words possible, so much so that many people missed the speech. People didn't appreciate it (as is typical) until after the fact, when the intellects started to examine it more closely. It's an equation capturing the essence of how the battle (and the war) should be viewed... almost a philosophical proof.

If INTP is right, he was more the "social/easy-going" sort than the reclusive/avoidant sort. IOW, he had decent people skillz. He was kind, witty, a bit gangly/awkward, down-to-earth, laid-back, non-presumptuous, felt deeply under his rationality, married an ESFJ (stabilizing her as much as possible)...

... he felt that slavery was wrong but at first was far more concerned about secession and preserving the union... only later seeing that slavery was an intertwined issue that he had the opportunity to deal with and was in fact needing to be dealt with as the war progressed, and there was no longer a reason to avoid it. He constantly adjusted to situations as they unfolded.

His cabinet was NOT stocked with "yes" men at all. In fact, he created more issues for himself because he placed people who disliked him and even considered him an enemy, because he valued the reality that they would give him other opinions, and his goal seemed to be to put all the ideas together, let them fight it out, and then give credence to the ideas that survived. He was very rigorous, mentally; but seemed very naive of the politics that could derail his rather idealistic way of approaching a "thinktank." (He just didn't seem to realize how petty and personal people could be in situations where he would naturally detach and act in a fair and balanced manner.) He also had a spirit off melancholy about him, and winsomeness. And he had that sense of impending events... the INTP-ish grasp of cause-and-effect and where a situation was likely to go if the system worked as expected... even potentially resulting potential premonitions of his own death.

... oh, the list goes on and on.

As an INTP, he would be an amazing success story. He only won the presidency originally because he was the most palatable of all the candidates to both sides (he was placed in power by political jockeying between both parties). THere was a time during the war he seemed likely to lose re-election. It was only as the war was ending and after the war had ended and he had been killed, that people really started to realize what a good man and human being he actually was, and how many other types of leaders would have not responded as well to the events of that time. (They would have either tried to lock things down, resulting in a later worse explosion; or been completely overrun by them; but Lincoln kind of "rode the surge" with stamina, flexibility, and long-term vision.)

I would definitely not label him a "conventional politician" by today's standards, but a good man who did the best he could in a very difficult situation that would have destroyed less-flexible and less-perceptive/thoughtful men, who just happened to be a political leader at the time. (Talk about providence.)

 

[Viridian]

Enneagram-wise, he's usually classified as a 9w1.

 

[Sol_]

ENFJ, like Hitler

 

[Blackwater]

INTP

 

[Sparrow]

All over the net I have seen Abe listed as ENFJ .... other then that I have no idea .

 

[Craft]

ENFJ and INTP?

Big Division right there. I hear a lot of "INFP" as well.

Here are some quotes that I gathered from wikiquotes btw:

"Upon the subject of education, not presuming to dictate any plan or system respecting it, I can only say that I view it as the most important subject which we as a people can be engaged in." -Address Delivered in Candidacy for the State Legislature. (9 March 1832)


"I have now come to the conclusion never again to think of marrying, and for this reason; I can never be satisfied with anyone who would be blockhead enough to have me." - Letter to Mrs. Orville H. Browning (1 April 1838)


"Broken by it, I, too, may be; bow to it I never will. The probability that we may fall in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just; it shall not deter me." -Speech of the Sub-Treasury (1839), Collected Works 1:178
Variant (misspelling): "The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just; and it shall not deter me."




Quotes that I thought were relevant:

I believe it is an established maxim in morals that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false, is guilty of falsehood; and the accidental truth of the assertion, does not justify or excuse him.

Any people anywhere being inclined and having the power have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right—a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit.

Truth is generally the best vindication against slander.

Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it. -Letter to Henry L Pierce and others (6 April 1859)



....seem value-oriented. Got tired of looking, but you can look for yourself:http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln

 

[Spamtar]

INTp that really got too removed from the emotion costs (cost in lives/ "liberty" and individual suffering) of what he was fighting for. Clearly slavery was not the reason behind the war but rather a jumping point of demagoguery/propaganda to an otherwise mundane and unpopular power move. A power restructuring which a strict adoption of federalist goals (vs states rights) that ultimately resulted in the death of more Americans than any other war.

In a few decades I doubt he will be held in as great esteem as he is now.

 

[thisGuy]

In a few decades I doubt he will be held in as great esteem as he is now.

what...why?

 

[Totenkindly]

INTp that really got too removed from the emotion costs (cost in lives/ "liberty" and individual suffering) of what he was fighting for. Clearly slavery was not the reason behind the war but rather a jumping point of demagoguery/propaganda to an otherwise mundane and unpopular power move. A power restructuring which a strict adoption of federalist goals (vs states rights) that ultimately resulted in the death of more Americans than any other war.

It would help if you explained your basis -- because that's not the Lincoln I am aware of from the bios that described his behavior, thinking, and state of mind from correspondence, etc.

Put blankly, he agonized over this shit. Continuously.

This sounds like you having not done actual reading of Lincoln, and instead imposing your own generalized political values over top of the existence of the Civil War.

What's your source material?

 

[Viridian]

Someone on Personality Cafe suggested INFJ with a strong tertiary Ti... what do you guys think?

 

[Speed Gavroche]

INFJ 9w1 So/Sp.

 

[Spamtar]

It would help if you explained your basis -- because that's not the Lincoln I am aware of from the bios that described his behavior, thinking, and state of mind from correspondence, etc.

Put blankly, he agonized over this shit. Continuously.

This sounds like you having not done actual reading of Lincoln, and instead imposing your own generalized political values over top of the existence of the Civil War.

What's your source material?

The generalization is mine as I appearently clearly indicated, but there is nothing in it that would red flag factual disparity by historians . Its a fair opinion after analysis of those facts.

This statement is based on facts of general acceptance of the accounts of Lincoln and the status of federalism which can be viewed from reading U.S. Constitution and the early federalism issue related U.S. Supreme Court cases as compendium to standard U.S. history texts.

Since the Revolution, there was a lingering issue as to the power struggle on state and central government and the Civil War essentially was the federal government telling the states "its my way or the highway", not "preserving" the delicate balance illustrated in the U.S. Constitution that favored a weaker central government.

The facts are is essentially undisputed it is the textbook historian spin/propoganda which I call into dispute [the ass kissing light that most bios put on Lincoln]. In all fairness, books trashing Lincoln don't sell as well as the publishers might wish; so they don't sell them because they know their market. A market of an indoctrinated public who have this mythological view of Lincoln as some superhero who single handedly freed the slaves from captivity towards some sort of prosperous state of being.

England freed their slaves without all the killing not long thereafter. This begs the question of whether all the killing (and ultimately resentment and more indirect oppression towards blacks in the post reconstruction south) was necessary or otherwise could have been accomplished in a less violent/costly manner.

Thus I don't care if Lincoln agonised while dropping tears in his soup as he contemplated the rape of the souther states(essentially separate countries at the time, similar to the EU countries) or whether Hitler slept like a baby. Its not the point. The point is a proper gaging of morality through reasonable criteria such as a cost/benefit analysis weighed agaisnt reasonable alternatives.

The point is that "preserving the union" was not about preserving the status quo rather it was an invasion on the individual sovereign of the states which involved a great deal of killing,rape and destruction of property including the civilian populace so that the federal government and the powerful north eastern states could dominate the southern states.

The Emancipation proclamation was great only in the sense of great propaganda. It was done to weaken the confederacy and not about justice or natural law (absurd as to its minimal effect on the slave holding Union states).

By today's standard he would be deemed vicariously liable mass murderer and a tyrant if he attempted a similar invasion.

 

[highlander]

INTP seems to be the consensus of opinions I've read.

Agree

 

[INTPness]

ESFP. He went clubbing a lot.

 

[Orangey]

INTP

 

[A window to the soul]

Unlucky.