Jefferson: INFJ or INTP?

[Blackwater]

Having read a lot of Jefferson's papers, he strikes me as a Ti-user and an introvert for sure. Yet he is also very polite, even agreeable. Could Jefferson be an INFJ?

Edit: For example, Jefferson took scripture so seriously that God could not have created species and then let them die that he thought that there might be live wholly mammoths in the Western USA (which in part was why he financed lewis and clark).

 

[Athenian200]

This is a difficult determination to make.

I really admire Jefferson in many respects... though I think he was a little bit constrained by the conventions of his time. I think he was more likely to be an INTP, because his ideas were very influenced by the Enlightenment tradition, and were rarely the result of his own imagination. He also tended to stick rather rigidly to certain principles, rather than always focusing on the big picture. He was a brilliant man, but his skill was more T than N. I am certain he was an N, though. Just not N dominant.

The issues I have with his thinking, are usually the same issues I have with an INTP's thinking... it makes sense and I generally agree with it, but it isn't forward-looking enough. Too rooted in the local circumstances at times, not totally global in perspective.

I consider his ideas evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

 

[Orangey]

Either ISTJ or ESTJ.

 

[Blackwater]

Uhh? How so? Never seen him typed that way before.

 

[Killjoy]

Either ISTJ or ESTJ.

Uhh? How so? Never seen him typed that way before.

Let me guess...

 

[highlander]

Definite Ni-Dom. I would say INTJ though INFJ is possible.

 

[Orangey]

Let me guess...

Hah! No, actually. I don't usually face-type when I'm dealing with early historical figures because their portraits are often too varied to be of help.

I typed him that way because his thought is fundamentally pragmatic/practical in nature, and he was known for being a work-horse and lover of details. When he was a student, for example, he kept a ridiculously rigorous reading schedule for himself; it literally filled up the entirety of his day and covered several categories of subjects. He was known for his great methodical industry (which is why he was able to learn so much shit so quickly. He was very self-disciplined.) Hell, he's even listed on a lot of those "feel better about having OCD"-type sites as a great person who had OCD.

For that matter, why are INTP and INFJ the original guesses? Let me guess, is it because he was a really smart guy? :rolli:

It's pretty interesting to me that his face (at least as it's portrayed here) lined up so well with my opinion, though.

 

[Blackwater]

INFJ/INTP because he was an introverted Ti-user.

"In France, John Baptist Say has the merit of producing a very superior work on the subject of Political Economy. His arrangement is luminous, ideas clear, style perspicuous, and the whole subject brought within half the volume of [Adam] Smith's work. Add to this considerable advances in correctness and extension of principles."

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816

Sounds pretty Ti to me.

 

[Orangey]

INFJ/INTP because he was an introverted Ti-user.

"In France, John Baptist Say has the merit of producing a very superior work on the subject of Political Economy. His arrangement is luminous, ideas clear, style perspicuous, and the whole subject brought within half the volume of [Adam] Smith's work. Add to this considerable advances in correctness and extension of principles."

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816

Sounds pretty Ti to me.

How does that sound Ti to you? Because he mentioned the words "correctness" and "principles?" All he's doing in this passage is telling somebody something about something else, like a review. He's not even reasoning.

 

[Blackwater]

Ti = Isolate the principle, honour the principle, let all else follow by itself
Te = Sum up the concrete situaion, assign a specific course of action

Jefferson talks about "considerable advances in ... extension of principles". I don't know a single Te-user who finds "considerable advances in extension of principles" sexy in and of itself. In my experience they do enjoy complex theoretical notions, yet once they have a basic grasp of the situation, they prefer to switch to executive mode: How does this apply to the situation at hand, and what needs to be done. (As extrovert functions must apply themselves to the outher environment.)

You can of course argue, that Jefferson is merely reviewing a book, which he is. I think its good to have your perspective present in this thread, though I personally see no STJ-ness what so ever. But maybe you can point it out to me:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

 

[Orangey]

Try this on for size. Would an INTP really give a shit about any of this? This is STJ micro-management at its very worst.

I do not wish you to be gayly clothed this time of life, but that what you wear should be fine of its kind; but above all things, at at all times let your clothes be clean, whole, and properly put on. You will be the last who will be sensible of this. Some ladies think they may under the privileges of the dishabille be loose and negligent of their dress in the morning. But be you from the moment you rise till you go to bed as cleanly and properly dressed as at the hours of dinner or tea. A lady who has been seen as a sloven or slut in the morning will never efface the impression she then made with all the dress and pageantry she can afterwards involve herself in. Nothing is so disgusting to our sex as a want of cleanliness and delicacy in yours. I hope therefore the moment you rise from bed, your first work will be to dress yourself in such a stile as that you may be seen by any gentleman without his being able to discover a pin amiss, or by any other circumstance of neatness wanting.

This was a letter to his daughter Patsy.

Here's some stuff from another letter (written when he was younger) that he sent to a friend who'd asked him for advice on what he should read during his legal studies.

Before 8 a.m., "Employ yourself in physical studies, Ethics, Religion, natural and sectarian, and natural law." From 8 a.m. to 12 p.m., he suggested reading in law, and from 12 to 1, politics. Then the afternoon would cover history, and "From dark to Bed-time," belles-lettres, criticism, rhetoric, and oratory. (Taken from pp. 63 of "Thomas Jefferson: an intimate history by Fawn McKay Brodie.)

This stuff shows that he was a fastidious, methodical, detail-whore. Do those traits not strike you more as STJ than NTP? (I am discounting INFJ because I REALLY do not think he was an F of any sort.)

 

[highlander]

Try this on for size. Would an INTP really give a shit about any of this? This is STJ micro-management at its very worst.



This was a letter to his daughter Patsy.

Here's some stuff from another letter (written when he was younger) that he sent to a friend who'd asked him for advice on what he should read during his legal studies.

Before 8 a.m., "Employ yourself in physical studies, Ethics, Religion, natural and sectarian, and natural law." From 8 a.m. to 12 p.m., he suggested reading in law, and from 12 to 1, politics. Then the afternoon would cover history, and "From dark to Bed-time," belles-lettres, criticism, rhetoric, and oratory. (Taken from pp. 63 of "Thomas Jefferson: an intimate history by Fawn McKay Brodie.)

This stuff shows that he was a fastidious, methodical, detail-whore. Do those traits not strike you more as STJ than NTP? (I am discounting INFJ because I REALLY do not think he was an F of any sort.)

The second letter sounds like Te to me. The first one sounds like Fe. Given his constant inventing, tinkering, and pioneering nature, I would imagine he is more likely an intuitive than a sensor. I've done some research on this in the past and read a couple of his biographies. I have a picture of him on the wall in my office because I'm a bit of a Jefferson fan. Every reference I've seen in the past has been INXJ.

 

[Orangey]

The second letter sounds like Te to me. The first one sounds like Fe. Given his constant inventing, tinkering, and pioneering nature, I would imagine he is more likely an intuitive than a sensor. I've done some research on this in the past and read a couple of his biographies. I have a picture of him on the wall in my office because I'm a bit of a Jefferson fan. Every reference I've seen in the past has been INXJ.

The second letter sounds like TeSi to me, because he was basically repeating to his friend what he'd devised as his own program of reading when he was studying law. I'm not sure how the first one sounds Fe, though. It's blunt, directive, and dealing with the minutiae of his daughter's dress, which again seems like TeSi. Also, I don't think his "inventing, tinkering, and pioneering nature" excludes him from being STJ. A lot of his stuff was simply improvement on old designs (not to diminish his accomplishments, don't get me wrong), and they were ALWAYS practical, "down-to-Earth" things. Or are you really saying that STJs, even if they're smart, would most likely not invent new things?

Also, what do you mean by "every reference I've seen in the past has been INXJ?" Do you mean that you've only ever heard him called an INXJ (on forums and MBTI-related sites)? If so, I'd like to point out that...who cares?

If I were to ever call him an N, I'd say he was an INTJ. Never an INFJ or INTP.

 

[highlander]

The second letter sounds like TeSi to me, because he was basically repeating to his friend what he'd devised as his own program of reading when he was studying law. I'm not sure how the first one sounds Fe, though. It's blunt, directive, and dealing with the minutiae of his daughter's dress, which again seems like TeSi. Also, I don't think his "inventing, tinkering, and pioneering nature" excludes him from being STJ. A lot of his stuff was simply improvement on old designs (not to diminish his accomplishments, don't get me wrong), and they were ALWAYS practical, "down-to-Earth" things. Or are you really saying that STJs, even if they're smart, would most likely not invent new things?

Also, what do you mean by "every reference I've seen in the past has been INXJ?" Do you mean that you've only ever heard him called an INXJ (on forums and MBTI-related sites)? If so, I'd like to point out that...who cares?

If I were to ever call him an N, I'd say he was an INTJ. Never an INFJ or INTP.

Maybe I should taper back my perspective on him being an Ni-dom.

- He was a bookworm with great curiosity about things like economics, architecture, mathematics, philosophy, astronomy, science and technology
- He held several patents related to things he invented like the pedometer, swivel chair and lazy Susan
- He designed his own home and was tinkering with it through his entire life - something or other was constantly under construction
- His style seemed to be more informing than directive
- He liked to communicate about ideas, principles, and concepts

I don't think that sounds like an SJ or FJ. He very much sounds like an NT. He was an introvert.

So, that leaves INTP or INTJ. Those quotes above look like Te as you said. However, as I think about it, INTP is quite possible because of the diversity of his interests. An INTJ would perhaps be more single minded or focused. Then there is the informing vs. directing style.

 

[Torai]

http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/dinner-etiquette

Jefferson hated the rules of formality and etiquette and would not allow them at his dinner parties, something that really isn't very SJ-like.



"By never mixing Federalists and Republicans at his table Jefferson evidently hoped to maintain the social harmony he so prized."

Are we going to acknowledge some of the aspects of Extroverted Feeling that Jefferson seems to portray, or do I have to italicize?

 

[Blackwater]

Indeed, Torai

I remain torn between INFJ and INTP

 

[GetOffMyBiscuits]

ISTJ

 

[Torai]

ISTJ

Not likely. I don't think ISTJs would go against conventional rules of etiquette for social harmony.

 

[RaptorWizard]

INFJ. Why? Because he protected us against evil ExTJs with his epic visions and sense of ethics very like INFJ.

 

[Elfboy]

Having read a lot of Jefferson's papers, he strikes me as a Ti-user and an introvert for sure. Yet he is also very polite, even agreeable. Could Jefferson be an INFJ?
Edit: For example, Jefferson took scripture so seriously that God could not have created species and then let them die that he thought that there might be live wholly mammoths in the Western USA (which in part was why he financed lewis and clark).

why is he Ti/Fe? I think he was ENTJ personally