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  1. #31
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    I see what you mean with the Si, and that his feeling is more difficult to change, particularly in a situation by situation basis, but I think he is more INFP than ISTJ. His feeling seems paramount, so perhaps it is his tertiary Si causing it.

    I think you have a good point, but I think this is one of those difficult situations where 2 types have the same function set and it is difficult to decide which is stronger, like Barney in HIMYM.
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  2. #32
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    BTW What type do you think Jet is? I was thinking ENTJ.
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  3. #33
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    No, no, no. Jet is most definitely an ESTP. Where did you get ENTJ from?
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  4. #34
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    I see what you mean with the Si, and that his feeling is more difficult to change, particularly in a situation by situation basis, but I think he is more INFP than ISTJ. His feeling seems paramount, so perhaps it is his tertiary Si causing it.

    I think you have a good point, but I think this is one of those difficult situations where 2 types have the same function set and it is difficult to decide which is stronger, like Barney in HIMYM.
    Ahh...so we're dealing with hierarchy now.

    Let's look at the two arrangements, mainly the relationship between Pi and Pe.

    1. Si Te Fi Ne
    2. Fi Ne Si Te

    ------

    What does a dominant Si mean? Or rather, what does a dominant Pi mean?

    A type of thinking heavily focused on perception reliant on introversion, on our independence of the external.

    Does Zuko have this?

    I think Zuko does have this very focused and introverted view. I think he is always looking at things he must achieve, instead of always being distracted by the external stimulation surrounding him. Try to relate him to Ang who is a Pe dominant---one who is always finding himself taken elsewhere and finding it hard to "introvert" his perception.

    -----

    I think the center point of your argument is his heightened regard for his values, but I think you confuse this with his 'worldview', his Si. Pi dominants wish to fulfill what they stored in their primary function, it is, after all, their most preferred function. And the emphasis on Pi further strengthens what values lie stored within "Pi".

    Or try this question: Where is his auxiliary Pe?

  5. #35
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    BTW What type do you think Jet is? I was thinking ENTJ.
    I don't remember this character well. But my search in google leads me to this:




    The bamboo leaf(?) somewhat signifies a preference for the present environment.

    If he is extroverted, then ExxP.

    From the scrutinizing eyes, Te or Ti. If Pe dom is true, then Ti. ExTP.

    From the leaf, an Se material, then ESTP.

    Hah. my logic is supreme.

    I remember him leading and seeking revenge, but I think he can't get rid of his playfulness(?)

  6. #36
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Ahh...so we're dealing with hierarchy now.

    Let's look at the two arrangements, mainly the relationship between Pi and Pe.

    1. Si Te Fi Ne
    2. Fi Ne Si Te

    ------

    What does a dominant Si mean? Or rather, what does a dominant Pi mean?

    A type of thinking heavily focused on perception reliant on introversion, on our independence of the external.

    Does Zuko have this?

    I think Zuko does have this very focused and introverted view. I think he is always looking at things he must achieve, instead of always being distracted by the external stimulation surrounding him. Try to relate him to Ang who is a Pe dominant---one who is always finding himself taken elsewhere and finding it hard to "introvert" his perception.

    -----

    I think the center point of your argument is his heightened regard for his values, but I think you confuse this with his 'worldview', his Si. Pi dominants wish to fulfill what they stored in their primary function, it is, after all, their most preferred function. And the emphasis on Pi further strengthens what values lie stored within "Pi".

    Or try this question: Where is his auxiliary Pe?
    Hm... maybe you're right. He doesn't seem to have an awful lot of Ne. I just sense so much Fi. He always acts on how he feels, like when he challenges Azula to an Agni Kai even though it would be more strategic (Te) to run away, and when he goes to find the Southern Raiders because he understands how she is feeling and sympathises with that view. And his Te seems to be more in the background. Iroh tells him "You never think these things through!" showing how he acts on his emotional impulses. His goals are idealistic and personal as well, but maybe his Si is causing him to tend to revert to what he's been taught. Maybe he's an INFP with a strong tertiary Si. I'm undecided but still leaning towards INFP.

    As for Jet, he seems Fi driven, always wanting to get back at the Fire Nation and refusing to listen to others opinions. He has Te organisational skills as well. He has no sense of tradition and is always strategising on how to defeat the fire nation, even if it means hurting others.
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  7. #37
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Hm... maybe you're right. He doesn't seem to have an awful lot of Ne. I just sense so much Fi. He always acts on how he feels, like when he challenges Azula to an Agni Kai even though it would be more strategic (Te) to run away, and when he goes to find the Southern Raiders because he understands how she is feeling and sympathises with that view. And his Te seems to be more in the background. Iroh tells him "You never think these things through!" showing how he acts on his emotional impulses. His goals are idealistic and personal as well, but maybe his Si is causing him to tend to revert to what he's been taught. Maybe he's an INFP with a strong tertiary Si. I'm undecided but still leaning towards INFP.
    So the argument now is that because he's not very strategic, he doesn't prioritize Te? Couldn't he just be a rather incompetent but quick decision maker?

    And I sincerely don't think it's about "F" here, I see his 'action based on feeling' as a hint on how much he prioritizes his Pi. It's not because he acts on how he feels, but rather he acts on what he sees he must act upon. In other words, emotional consideration is below his goal. Redemption and Honor are things that can be 'seen' without emotion; on the other hand, they can be solely seen as things of value.

    As for Jet, he seems Fi driven, always wanting to get back at the Fire Nation and refusing to listen to others opinions. He has Te organisational skills as well. He has no sense of tradition and is always strategising on how to defeat the fire nation, even if it means hurting others.
    From memory, I find him too distracted and relaxed to be ENTJ. Fe Fi Te or Ti, all types are capable of wanting 'revenge' or valuing something.

  8. #38
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    So the argument now is that because he's not very strategic, he doesn't prioritize Te? Couldn't he just be a rather incompetent but quick decision maker?

    And I sincerely don't think it's about "F" here, I see his 'action based on feeling' as a hint on how much he prioritizes his Pi. It's not because he acts on how he feels, but rather he acts on what he sees he must act upon. In other words, emotional consideration is below his goal. Redemption and Honor are things that can be 'seen' without emotion; on the other hand, they can be solely seen as things of value.


    From memory, I find him too distracted and relaxed to be ENTJ. Fe Fi Te or Ti, all types are capable of wanting 'revenge' or valuing something.
    Agreed.
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  9. #39
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree on Zuko as ISTJ now, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    From memory, I find him too distracted and relaxed to be ENTJ. Fe Fi Te or Ti, all types are capable of wanting 'revenge' or valuing something.
    But I still don't think Jet is an ESTP. He's too much of a long term planner and doesn't seem to indulge much in Se. It's not like he goes out having fun during the series or anything. His entire focus is on managing his team and leading them in his long-term plan to defeat the fire nation, or at least do as much as they can. And his Fi definitely seems stronger than his Fe. He puts it on sometimes to seem diplomatic, but he is dead set in his ways. It takes being defeated and frozen to a tree and the collapse of his entire group to realise he's done anything wrong. NTJs can often get caught up in their Ni/Fi vision and not be able to see that they might be wrong. He LOOKS laid back at times, but he is always just waiting for another mission. He wasn't really 'distracted' at all. And I realise you were joking, but really, it takes more than "He has a leaf in his mouth" to say he is an ESTP. I'm sure you can be an N and still put leaves in your mouth.

    I think he is one of those people who appear ESTP on the surface, but functionwise are rather different.
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  10. #40
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    But I still don't think Jet is an ESTP. He's too much of a long term planner and doesn't seem to indulge much in Se. It's not like he goes out having fun during the series or anything. His entire focus is on managing his team and leading them in his long-term plan to defeat the fire nation, or at least do as much as they can. And his Fi definitely seems stronger than his Fe. He puts it on sometimes to seem diplomatic, but he is dead set in his ways. It takes being defeated and frozen to a tree and the collapse of his entire group to realise he's done anything wrong. NTJs can often get caught up in their Ni/Fi vision and not be able to see that they might be wrong. He LOOKS laid back at times, but he is always just waiting for another mission. He wasn't really 'distracted' at all. And I realise you were joking, but really, it takes more than "He has a leaf in his mouth" to say he is an ESTP. I'm sure you can be an N and still put leaves in your mouth.

    I think he is one of those people who appear ESTP on the surface, but functionwise are rather different.
    What long term plans did he have? Seeking revenge on the Fire Nation was not a plan...it was his goal, which was fairly petty in and of itself. And he went about accomplishing his goal by using small-scale tactics such as robbing and brutalizing old men and burning down small Fire Nation-occupied towns full of innocent citizens. There was no strategy nor any long-range planning involved AT ALL. If there had been, then perhaps he would have thought of better ways to ultimately defeat the Fire Nation rather than spending his time trolling the locals.

    I don't really see how you missed his Se, either. I mean, all he ever did was look for opportunities to take action, and that is nothing other than pure Se. You misunderstand what Se is if you think it's only about "having fun." When he first saved Aang and company, he scanned around and took advantage of the available resources in the camp. When he beat that old Fire Nation man up, he took the opportunity to rob him of his money and supplies. When Aang and company showed up, he took advantage of their apparent naivete and used them to help mass murder a town. When he met Zuko on the boat to Ba Sing Sei, he took advantage of Zuko's apparent dissatisfaction with the food to recruit him into his theft scheme. When he realized that Zuko and Iroh were Fire Nation, he was so impatient to move into action that he stormed in and accused them without any evidence or regard for the potential consequences. All of these things were done in the moment, on impulse, and often did not even directly serve to further his own goal (e.g., he would have been killing more Earth Nation people than Fire Nation by destroying the town, and he would have alienated the Airbender, who is apparently key to taking down the Fire Nation.)

    As for your claims about him being "dead set in his ways" as a result of Ni/Fi, it seems as though you're ignoring the fact that many (if not all) types are stubborn, especially when it comes to things that they believe in or feel to be right. I don't see why an ESTP would be any less stubborn than an ENTJ in that regard.

    Finally, he comes off more as a hot-headed opportunist (ESTP) than a cool-headed strategist (ENTJ.) Add to that his snake-oil salesman-like charm (tertiary Fe), his deep-seated paranoia (inferior Ni), and his overall badass vigilante vibe, and he seems even more clearly ESTP.
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