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  1. #831
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It's counterproductive to speak negatively about a certain group of people because they aren't like you. If you don't like their thing, that's fine, but there's zero benefit and possible harm to publicly insulting them. Cost-benefit analysis of behavior.



    Not to mention it's beneficial to your own life satisfaction to try to see things in a positive light.

    Lose-lose or win-win, your choice.
    Like I said previously, I made my conclusions from observing a sample group and even then I do try my best to get along with them without insulting them or making their life worse. I have an old friend who I think is an ESFP and I apply effort to overlook their faults.

    I would be willing to argue the second point with you (focusing on negatives does have its benefits too) but alas it isn't relevant to the topic.

  2. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Like I said previously, I made my conclusions from observing a sample group. I have a good friend who I think is an ESFP and who I look past any faults for.

    I would be willing to argue the second point with you (focusing on negatives does have its benefits too) but alas it isn't relevant to the topic.
    Eh, I think it is. Point being I think it's only useful to focus on negatives if they're real negatives. I don't think the ones you were pointing out actually existed anywhere but in your interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    Nor do they need to think about the veracity of their own immediate perceptions, because those are their immediate perceptions, and there is no deeper reality than that which they immediately perceive.
    Precisely.

  3. #833
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Dude get off my back. I only know a handful of ESFPs but these are observations I've made about them. I would welcome the opportunity to change my views because some of them I have to work with and I don't particularly enjoy the idea that I have to spend most of my time from people I can't learn anything new from or find common ground with.
    Ftr, I've never had anything against you, so my being on your back had everything to do with what you said, and how you responded (i.e., flippantly/rudely, and unnwarrantedly so). Your observations were not fair, and yes, fairness is a perfectly reasonable think to expect of another's observations, unless we should all just go around being unfair fucking assholes all the time.

    Trust me, I get your frustrations with ES(F)Ps - there's some truth to them - but it ain't the whole truth, and it's certainly not fair.

    Believe it or not, there are some genius fucking ES(F)Ps out there who would make you look like a mental midget.

  4. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Eh, I think it is. Point being I think it's only useful to focus on negatives if they're real negatives. I don't think the ones you were pointing out actually existed anywhere but in your interpretation.
    I will actually come to his aid on this one.

    There was some truth to most of what he said.

    They often will have a blank expression where nothing really is going on upstairs.

    Two issues arise from this observation, though:

    1. It's not necessarily the case with all of them.

    2. Even if it were, what's necessarily problematic about it? Maybe there really isn't a need to have a bunch of shit going on up in our/their minds at all moments. Maybe many of the goals of much of Eastern philosophy and meditation (mindfulness, emptying your mind, living in the now, etc) come rather naturally to them, and you , the one with all those self-important thoughts constantly going on upstairs, are the one with the actual problem.


    Precisely.
    Just to check...

    I was being sarcastic...

    I think Jon's whole "say only positive things about Se/Sensing and only negative things about Ni/Intuition" is simple-minded, stupid, and the wrong way to go about doing things (particularly discovering/spreading the truth). I understand why he's doing it, but, if he's going to be intentionally unbalanced about it (even if for understandable - even noble - reasons), well, I can't help but be the Libra I am and be compelled to balance that shit out.

  5. #835
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ftr, I've never had anything against you, so my being on your back had everything to do with what you said, and how you responded (i.e., flippantly/rudely, and unnwarrantedly so). Your observations were not fair, and yes, fairness is a perfectly reasonable think to expect of another's observations, unless we should all just go around being unfair fucking assholes all the time.

    Trust me, I get your frustrations with ES(F)Ps - there's some truth to them - but it ain't the whole truth, and it's certainly not fair.

    Believe it or not, there are some genius fucking ES(F)Ps out there who would make you look like a mental midget.
    This would have to be my last response because I really have to go but I was only talking about a sample group which unfortunately is quite large. I am also sure there are legitimate genius ESFPs out there too. If you encounter any then suggest them to go in my direction. I would be interested to test how it would turn out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Believe it or not, there are some genius fucking ES(F)Ps out there who would make you look like a mental midget.
    And I'm sure the same applies just as well for me and my own intellect in comparison to theirs.

    But that doesn't make them wiser or more able to develop great ideas; it just means they're better problem solvers and have a faster wit.

    edit - I 2nd this quote below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    This would have to be my last response because I really have to go but I was only talking about a sample group which unfortunately is quite large. I am also sure there are legitimate genius ESFPs out there too. If you encounter any then suggest them to go in my direction. I would be interested to test how it would turn out.

  7. #837
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Van der Hoop does a pretty good job of outlining a Se-dom's abilities, and type of intelligence:

    They are frequently good story-tellers. They are most suited to practical callings, such as those of doctor or engineer. Their fondness for knowing a multitude of facts is related to a preference which they occasionally show for collecting objects of scientific or aesthetic interest. One may also include in this type many people of good taste, who have developed appreciation of the subtler pleasures of life into a fine art.
    We certainly wouldn't call people suited to medicine or engineering stupid, would we? I also wouldn't call world-class athletes and ballerinas stupid, even if they thought Hegel was a type of crotch exercise. I'm not saying all athletes/dancers are ESFP's, but you gotta admit that there are likely a lot of Se-doms in those fields.

    Malcolm Gladwell once wrote about the "physical genius". Classical musicians, athletes, surgeons, all have physical intelligence. These are people who have a knack for translating thought into physical action. These are people who are so in tune with their bodies, and with their sensory environment, that they can accomplish tasks that require an obscene amount of finesse. Gladwell also talks a lot about the ability to visualize their environment. Here is an excerpt I found interesting:

    What sets physical geniuses apart from other people, then, is not merely being able to do something but knowing what to do—their capacity to pick up on subtle patterns that others generally miss. This is what we mean when we say that great athletes have a "feel" for the game, or that they "see" the court or the field or the ice in a special way. Wayne Gretzky, in a 1981 game against the St. Louis Blues, stood behind the St. Louis goal, laid the puck across the blade of his stick, then bounced it off the back of the goalie in front of him and into the net. Gretzky's genius at that moment lay in seeing a scoring possibility where no one had seen one before. "People talk about skating, puck-handling, and shooting," Gretzky told an interviewer some years later, "but the whole sport is angles and caroms, forgetting the straight direction the puck is going, calculating where it will be diverted, factoring in all the interruptions." Neurosurgeons say that when the very best surgeons operate they always know where they are going, and they mean that the Charlie Wilsons of this world possess that same special feel—an ability to calculate the diversions and to factor in the interruptions when faced with a confusing mass of blood and tissue.
    I'm not claiming Se = physical intelligence, just as no function equals a form of intelligence. However, what is being described above--this feel/vision--reminds me of when Se-users talk about sizing people up, getting clues based on body language. Maybe you want to argue the sports intelligence sounds more like a Se-Ti thing than a Se-Fi thing. FINE. But you have to at least concede that the physical intelligence required of certain fine arts (playing instruments/dancing/scultping/whatever), would definitely be in an ESFP's wheelhouse, even if they don't don't have a monopoly on such abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, you have to admit, there is some reason for it.
    True, extraverted sensors basically live to enjoy the sensory world. But Jung did also say:

    It by no means follows that he is just sensual or gross, for he may differentiate his sensation to the finest pitch of aesthetic purity without ever deviating from his principle of concrete sensation however abstract his sensations may be.
    I think it's important to remember that intuitive types often have the kinkiest and grossest relationship with the physical world. ESFP's experience their Se in a very positive, differentiated way.

  8. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I guess they are okay for practical matters but like all practical issues one question remains: What would the utilitarian purpose be for a practical person once we have armies of robots?

    They are good at some creative areas but it is rooted in aesthetics - it looks good, it sounds good etc. It does not strike any deeper chords with me.

    One thing that does bug me is what I call "the void silence" or "the unspoken thoughtlessness". When they stop speaking there is a unique sense of silence which when observed at the same time of their facial expression screams one thing to me: that their brains are barely operating and are struggling to generate enough ideas to even find something to say. I blame inferior Ni myself - a sad display of cogs very slowly turning. I can't really describe it but it is different from ISPs (which have a watered down form) and far different from N types. With N's you can tell there is much activity going on in their heads between sentences and statements.



    Or maybe it is because theories and theory formulation are N traits and Te allows them to use empirically backed logic to make sure it works. Believe it or not but NFPs are more than capable of creating theories, being insightful and working with ideas. ENFPs are not stupid like you claim. You really shouldn't be speaking about something you aren't mentally able to comprehend. In fact I don't know why you still post ideas here. I would be sceptical that anyone gives your views any weight.
    If you read what I said again you will see the words "come off or feel" before the word "stupid."

    Nowhere did I say they were stupid.

  9. #839
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Well my parents are both rock climbers and I was brought up around their fellow club members.

    Suffice to say there are a large number of Se dominants amongst them and what I've found is that they have an unparalleled ability to engage with life in a way that makes it well lived as well as generating useful experiential information along the way.

    Some of them are also fucking idiots by my understanding. But many are highly intelligent and certainly more so than myself, though this is not hard.

    However I truly envy their natural ability to exist in that flow of the moment and therefore create an interesting life for themselves. Whereas I have to force life along like a square wheel.

    I often prefer the ESFP's to the ESTP's as I find a lot of the latter rather competitive and conflictual, which are my weak areas.
    ESFP's are more engaging socially and actually project a charming air that can be quite infectious and given over to imitation by others.

    I have learnt a lot from them in the way of cultivating a likable persona, well not really but it works superficially for groups who aren't looking at me too hard. Although they are naturally likeable, I create a persona to hide myself.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #840
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    i knew a brilliant ESFP - it was interesting, because you'd never know it by talking to her for the majority of the time, unless you assumed that she was and brought up interesting questions with her, in which case she'd throw at you an insanely intricate mental structure of why all the variables in question are interacting in a certain way in about the same "duh!" way she'd talk about why a certain pair of shoes worked better with a certain pair of pants (this was the 90s, teenage girls actually said "duh!")... and she'd think nothing of it, she didn't care that she was intelligent- it wasn't an aspect of her ego or her self image - her physical presence was, and last i heard she went into modelling (this was over a decade ago, probably changed careers since).

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