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  1. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    We each deserve chances to be heard out and acknowledged, but some people (like general ESFPs) are less likely to have something or as much available for integration. They can do other things, like leading people, or throwing parties, and so forth.
    I think it would be more accurate to say that ESFP intelligence is less available to your thinking for integration. To mine, too, to be fair. I struggle with Se. But there's no arguing that it's a form of intelligence, and I think it's unfair to imply that its usage is primarily linked to "superficial" activities like throwing parties. My ISTP little brother integrates Se as in-the-moment hyper-accurate observation linked to Ti which results in super-fast identification and response. He's planning to go to med school. Similarly, Se-Fi sets ESFPs up to excel at any number of challenges where accurate, immediate observation plus intrapersonal value sensitivity yields advantage: politics, therapy, human resources, event planning, sales, entertainment, training, mediation. One of my ESFP friends (7w8) works in hospitality management and my little brother's ESFP friend (6w7) is planning to go into international business. In-the-moment does not have to equate to superficial or useless in the greater scheme. Fi grounds ESFPs in value-oriented behavior and that's where you'll more easily be able to find the "meaning" in their chosen paths. Se is invested in activity and experiencing, which is skill all Ns could benefit from improving.

    Personally I prefer Socionics' descriptions of Se:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sociotype.com
    Introduction to Se
    Extroverted sensing is an extroverted, irrational, and static information element. It is also called Se, F, volitional sensing, or black sensing. Se includes the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required. Types that value Se are much more comfortable with direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact. This may at times be perceived as abrasive, particularly by types who do not value Se. There is usually a competitive edge to this style of group interaction, resulting in a more intense atmosphere than that of introverted sensing (Si)-valuing quadras. They appreciate contemplating possibilities only if they feel like they stand to gain something from it, or it has a perceived potential impact on "the real world". Unlike Si, which is about one's subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is), Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.

    Se as Leading Function
    The individual feels at home among people who are actively doing something and interacting with each other directly (visibly), and is able to organize people, move them around as necessary, and guide them in achieving a specific goal.[...] He is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him. [...] He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. [...] He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered.
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    ESFP's are just as bad as ENFP's when it comes to Ti. The whole Ti world and concept of independent minded logic is something they ultimately do not, and will not ever completely understand. This in essence is what makes the come off or feel "stupid" [...]
    This is true. Ti seems complicated to me. I grew up with an INTP dad and ISTP brother, so I'm relatively familiar with it, but I still don't completely comprehend it. My ISFJ is also quite unemotional and pretty Ti-heavy. It seems strange to me to be perceived as "stupid" because of my lack of it, but I can understand why a heavy Ti user would feel that way. To me, and I imagine to ESFPs, Ti can seem obscure and disconnected from reality. It doesn't feel like we need it to have a valuable life. (I do value Ti, but I have had to learn to value it; it did not come natively.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I guess they are okay for practical matters but like all practical issues one question remains: What would the utilitarian purpose be for a practical person once we have armies of robots?

    They are good at some creative areas but it is rooted in aesthetics - it looks good, it sounds good etc. It does not strike any deeper chords with me.


    I seem to remember you have Fi too; look for it in ESFP activities. Creativity and aesthetics: appreciation of life and generation of art that increases others' appreciation of life or calls into question our perspectives. What is the point of human life, anyway? Biologically it's simply to be born, reproduce, and die. The only other purposes are those we make up ourselves. If another person doesn't live up to your personal decision on what life means, it doesn't really matter, frankly. You don't have to value their life purpose, but that doesn't make it any less meaningful or worthwhile in the grand scheme than yours.

    One thing that does bug me is what I call "the void silence" or "the unspoken thoughtlessness". When they stop speaking there is a unique sense of silence which when observed at the same time of their facial expression screams one thing to me: that their brains are barely operating and are struggling to generate enough ideas to even find something to say.
    I don't really think that's fair at all, or accurate. Everyone's minds are always operating, and as a 6 I can attest that I work to decrease the amount I hyperanalyze. More thought does not mean better thought, and there are some ESFPs whose minds are flying fast as any - too fast, even (my little brother's 6w7 ESFP best friend, for example).

  2. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Se types are naturally enlightened, they don't need to think about the veracity of existence.
    Nor do they need to think about the veracity of their own immediate perceptions, because those are their immediate perceptions, and there is no deeper reality than that which they immediately perceive.

  3. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post


    I seem to remember you have Fi too; look for it in ESFP activities. Creativity and aesthetics: appreciation of life and generation of art that increases others' appreciation of life or calls into question our perspectives. What is the point of human life, anyway? Biologically it's simply to be born, reproduce, and die. The only other purposes are those we make up ourselves. If another person doesn't live up to your personal decision on what life means, it doesn't really matter, frankly. You don't have to value their life purpose, but that doesn't make it any less meaningful or worthwhile in the grand scheme than yours.
    You're telling me things that I've known for years. I've been a nihilist with unfortunate periodic lapses into existentialism since 2007. I know so much about the subject, moral relativism and the numerous rules about subjectivity that I doubt there is anything you can teach me about them. Don't waste your time.

    I don't really think that's fair at all, or accurate. Everyone's minds are always operating, and as a 6 I can attest that I work to decrease the amount I hyperanalyze. More thought does not mean better thought, and there are some ESFPs whose minds are flying fast as any - too fast, even (my little brother's 6w7 ESFP best friend, for example).
    It's called an observation. Fairness is irrelevant.

  4. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    You're telling me things that I've known for years. I've been a nihilist with unfortunate periodic lapses into existentialism since 2007. I know so much about the subject, moral relativism and the numerous rules about subjectivity that I doubt there is anything you can teach me about them. Don't waste your time.
    Nihilism.

    How original.

    It's called an observation. Fairness is irrelevant.
    How about stupidity?

  5. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    You're telling me things that I've known for years. I've been a nihilist with unfortunate periodic lapses into existentialism since 2007. I know so much about the subject, moral relativism and the numerous rules about subjectivity that I doubt there is anything you can teach me about them. Don't waste your time.

    It's called an observation. Fairness is irrelevant.
    It's counterproductive to speak negatively about a certain group of people because they aren't like you. If you don't like their thing, that's fine, but there's zero benefit and possible harm to publicly insulting them. Cost-benefit analysis of behavior.



    Not to mention it's beneficial to your own life satisfaction to try to see things in a positive light.

    Lose-lose or win-win, your choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    ...it's just a shame hedonistic mindlessness is so simply correlated with them.
    Well, you have to admit, there is some reason for it.

  7. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It's counterproductive to speak negatively about a certain group of people because they aren't like you. If you don't like their thing, that's fine, but there's zero benefit and possible harm to publicly insulting them. Cost-benefit analysis of behavior.

    Not to mention it's beneficial to your own life satisfaction to try to see things in a positive light.

    Lose-lose or win-win, your choice.
    This man's a nihilist, Lebowski.

    He believes in nothing.

    NOTHING.

  8. #828
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Nihilism.

    How original.



    How about stupidity?
    Dude get off my back. I only know a handful of ESFPs but these are observations I've made about them. I would welcome the opportunity to change my views because some of them I have to work with and I don't particularly enjoy the idea that I have to spend most of my time from people I can't learn anything new from or find common ground with.

  9. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, you have to admit, there is some reason for it.
    Yes, an ideal night for the guy I spoke of is four cool people and two cases of cheap beer, topped with burritos from a vendor parked outside of a car wash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Not sure if serious, but is there a quote? I suppose "depths"' sounds rather "Fi" like, but what I mean by that is what's actually going on inside my head, not the stuff I let most people see. I mean, I'd like people to see it, but they aren't always as receptive or interested in it as I would hope. Especially if it contradicts their neat and simple value system.

    Of course someone can "promise" that they'll be interested, but such promises are worthless.
    Perhaps you'd find they'd care more if your default position wasn't so asinine as the bolded.

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