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  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Gee whiz, who on earth gave this thread five stars?? Arguing with 15 year old INFP's who are insecure about their identity is NOT FUNNY....
    we just had a young arrogant misogynist get banned and are still getting over the wounds of that painful loss so don't take this one away from us dammit

  2. #782
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    we just had a young arrogant misogynist get banned and are still getting over the wounds of that painful loss so don't take this one away from us dammit
    I'm thinking we may have lost him to natural causes anyways.

    Since in the event of a fire or cardiac arrest those silly trucks may come along with their silly lights... and those stupid ESFx's may come piling out and break into his home. Since those ESFx's contribute nothing to this society, he can have the paperwork ready stating that he does not want to use their useless services or memorization skills. He won't need any slow thinkers around.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  3. #783
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    I always wonder what I should even think of intelligence as. In the past, I've mistaken intelligence for knowledgeability (large personal inventory of facts and concepts) as well as for pristine school performance (which ironically is more of a measure of motivation and task orientation than intelligence, necessarily).

    I don't see why memorization should be discounted as a factor of intelligence, but I agree that it doesn't solely define it -- especially rote or crammed memorization -- but then neither does abstract reasoning.

    I think that as of now, I sort of think of ("general") intelligence as a combination of all of these

    a - adaptive and abstract reasoning
    b - creative and effective application of knowledge
    c - critical thinking, logical reasoning and comprehension
    d - memory (capacity for and successful retention of knowledge)
    e - articulation (comprehension and command of language)
    f - curiosity (which is not to say that this is a prerequisite, but generally I believe curiosity and intelligence tend to go hand in hand)

    All of which only abstract reasoning (which I think is quite small when you take into account all of the others) would seem to be less engaged by ESFPs. All Ps tend to be creative and adaptive learners, and ESFPs can most likely also apply their knowledge and creativity with pretty great efficiency given their tertiary Te.

    That said, it's a bit tiring that intelligence tends to be viewed almost exclusively through the NT lens in these sorts of threads. NTs are one of four sectors of society, and if the statistics are to be believed, quite a small one at that. How then can SPs and SJs not contribute "anything of value" to society when they basically are the foundation of society?

    Though I guess the even bigger problem is the prominence of (often entirely personal) value judgments; these discussions tend to reek of underlying "intelligence = superiority, and I must defend my image of superiority" judgments that invariably limit open exploration.

  4. #784
    Senior Member Perch420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    These days I pretty much only read the SP section of this forum, but someone sent me a rep for an old post in this thread, so I re-read it..




    I read this and laughed because it sounds exactly like my experience with sociology class. I absolutely despised that class for its stereotype-perpetuating garbage, but the facts of it were very easy to memorize. I made an A in the class, including a perfect 100 on the final, meanwhile others in the class who were planning on majoring in sociology made C's! I think I might have glanced at the material once in studying for the final, in between sessions of playing Mortal Kombat.



    And the same to you.
    Am I supposed to be impressed? You memorized information and regurgitated it. You're only proving my point that it is impossible for an ESFP to think critically and abstractly, and therefore it is impossible for an ESFP to be "intelligent", as per the traditional definition of the term.
    “Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” - G. K. Chesterton

  5. #785
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    nevermind. im bored with this topic.

  6. #786
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    As long as you "die" (figuratively), i'm fine with it. Standing, lying, kneeling, face down...

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  7. #787
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    ... it is impossible for an ESFP to think critically and abstractly, and therefore it is impossible for an ESFP to be "intelligent", as per the traditional definition of the term.
    Dear Perch420,

    Allow me a minute to address you directly here. Your conclusion, that it is impossible for an ESFP to be "intelligent", depends upon the truth of your premises and on the validity of your argument.

    So let's examine your argument.

    To boil down what you are saying, it reduces to this: "Since human intelligence is defined as possessing critical and abstract thinking skills, any humans without these skills are stupid, and it impossible for an ESFP to possess these skills, therefore all ESFP's are stupid."

    Let's see if this holds up to scrutiny.

    Premise 1.) Your definition of intelligence is the possession of "critical and abstract thinking skills". Is this an accepted definition of intelligence? No; incomplete.

    Let's examine a number of authoritative sources to see what intelligence is defined as. I will use (for convenience's sake) the website www.dictionary.com.


    in·tel·li·gence   
    –noun
    1. capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.
    2. manifestation of a high mental capacity: He writes with intelligence and wit.
    3. the faculty of understanding.

    Dictionary.com Unabridged
    Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2011.


    World English Dictionary
    intelligence (ɪnˈtɛlɪdʒəns)

    — n
    1. the capacity for understanding; ability to perceive and comprehend meaning
    2. good mental capacity: a person of intelligence

    Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
    2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
    Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009


    Medical Dictionary

    in·tel·li·gence definition
    Pronunciation: /in-ˈtel-ə-jən(t)s/
    Function: n
    1 a : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations
    b : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)
    2 : mental acuteness
    Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2007 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


    intelligence in·tel·li·gence (ĭn-těl'ə-jəns)
    n.

    The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge, especially toward a purposeful goal.

    An individual's relative standing on two quantitative indices, namely measured intelligence, as expressed by an intelligence quotient, and effectiveness of adaptive behavior.

    The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
    Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Your definition is too narrow and vague to be an accepted definition of "intelligence". Therefore, premise 1 is incorrect.


    Premise 2.) As per my paraphrase: "any humans without these skills are stupid"

    Since your definition of intelligence is incorrect, we cannot conclude that humans without the skills you list are indeed stupid. Even if we collectively agreed upon a definition of what constitutes intelligence (as above for example), stupidity still would have to reduce to a set of observable actions to induce us to agree that someone is indeed stupid and lacks intelligence. And if we can't use actions to agree upon what defines stupidity, we would have to then try to agree on other objective measures, like IQ for example, to help us define intelligence vs stupidity. Yet if we use IQ then as a measure of intelligence, it has been demonstrated that high IQ can be found in all types, with a relative percentage of probability. (need to look up source). Yet even that percentage of probability is potentially biased, however, due to the preference of some personality types to testing of any kind. So, this data is potentially skewed as well. (See how slippery this slope is?)


    Premise 3.) Again, as per my paraphrase: "it impossible for an ESFP to possess these skills" - since your definition is incorrect in the first place, again this extrapolation is incorrect. But, let's go with a more authoritative definition of intelligence instead, as above, for fun.

    in·tel·li·gence   
    –noun
    1. capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.
    2. manifestation of a high mental capacity: He writes with intelligence and wit.
    3. the faculty of understanding.

    Anecdotally, I can say with certainty, I have witnessed on numerous occasions ESFP's demonstrating a "capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. etc." In fact, there's nothing in the above definition that excludes any ESFP from possessing these skills. Therefore you cannot conclude ESFP's, as individuals or as a group, are not in possession of intelligence. You would need to study a large group of verified ESFP's to make such a global conclusion. Have you done this? No.

    Can you say you have met an ESFP who fulfills the criteria for intelligence? Perhaps not. Impossible means 0% probability. But you are 15, your worldly skills are at a novice level, your ability to type others may be flawed, your perception of type skewed. You don't know because you do not yet even know yourself. Think on that.


    So finally, your conclusion: "all ESFP's are stupid" ...

    BUSTED. Just totally busted. Your premises are flawed at best, and just out and out incorrect. Come up with a better argument, and someone might hear what you have to say. You better have some hefty evidence on your side though.

    And hey, I get that you are testing out your Ti skills - you come across as a growing, exploring young INTP to me, but you still need some Fe in there, or you risk alienating everyone so that they won't even be interested in the first place to try to follow your train of thought.

    Good luck to you; try not to get banned.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #788
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    And hey, I get that you are testing out your Ti skills - you come across as a growing, exploring young INTP to me, but you still need some Fe in there, or you risk alienating everyone so that they won't even be interested in the first place to try to follow your train of thought.


    Good luck to you; try not to get banned.
    +1, he'll get there.
    No arguing with a 15 year old anyways. INTP or not.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  9. #789

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    I'd hate to have remnants of my 15 year old thoughts floating in cyberspace.

  10. #790
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    I'd hate to have remnants of my 15 year old thoughts floating in cyberspace.
    Oh my God. No ones 15 year old thoughts should be in cyberspace. It's the new age of embarrassing, like when your mom shows naked baby pictures of you to everyone.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
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    by sns.

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