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  1. #421
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Lex really lacks in the ability to evaluate and make sensible jugdments. I swear people like him will use ANYTHING to prove one group is better, smarter, and stronger than the other.
    It's been going on for thousands of years, this is the worst kind of stupidity because it is blind.

  2. #422
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    There are probably as many definitions of intelligence as there are experts who study it. Simply put, however, intelligence is the ability to learn about, learn from, understand, and interact with one’s environment. This general ability consists of a number of specific abilities, which include these specific abilities:

    * Adaptability to a new environment or to changes in the current environment
    * Capacity for knowledge and the ability to acquire it
    * Capacity for reason and abstract thought
    * Ability to comprehend relationships
    * Ability to evaluate and judge
    * Capacity for original and productive thought

    I think we should get this clear with a DEFINITION of intelligence.

    Intelligence derives from the latin word, intellegere, which means to 'understand'.

    It seems to be that INTJs are the ones 'not understanding' here.
    Congratulations on copy-pasting definitions obtained from google: Definition of Intelligence -- What is Intelligence? :in an attempt to sound intelligent.

    Secondly, your Latin is totally [insert appropriate phrase in Latin here], good sir.

    -----

    This thread seems to be about intelligence, as in, intellectual ability; not as in, the ability to make freinds or shovel food into your mouth with a fork, although, both of those things are great.

    Having said that, I don't know enough about personality typing to make any sort of real decision about intelligent ESFPs, but I'm going to take the reasonable route and say that they exist.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

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    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  3. #423
    Senior Member Ming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Congratulations on copy-pasting definitions obtained from google: Definition of Intelligence -- What is Intelligence? :in an attempt to sound intelligent.

    Secondly, your Latin is totally [insert appropriate phrase in Latin here], good sir.

    -----

    This thread seems to be about intelligence, as in, intellectual ability; not as in, the ability to make freinds or shovel food into your mouth with a fork, although, both of those things are great.

    Having said that, I don't know enough about personality typing to make any sort of real decision about intelligent ESFPs, but I'm going to take the reasonable route and say that they exist.
    What else was I supposed to do? When I look for a definition, I go to the dictionary. How else would you define something?

    I agree with everything else you've said.

    But seriously, I'm not flaming the INTJs or anything. Just the ones who are just plain idiotic, and it wouldn't really matter if they were an INTJ or not. Because they'd still be idiotic.

  4. #424
    Senior Member Ming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Well, I've already stated it, but in my not so humble opinion, ESFP "intelligence" is not intelligence. Interpersonal relationship skills may be objectively acquired, as is evident by the "mask of sanity" adopted by psychopathic serial killers, who understand social mores, understand proper social etiquette, but have no, or little, empathy. Therefore, having "people skills" is not necessarily a sign of intelligence, only concern.

    If you wish to point out certain character traits you find desirable in an ESFP, that is a different matter, but don't conflate interpersonal skills with intelligence.
    That whole argument basically said 'You're Wrong, I'm Right. My type of 'intelligence' is the holy one. I'm the best.'


  5. #425
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Lex makes a distinction between sheer raw intelligence and the way it is expressed, and then proceeds to judge ESFPs by the way they express their intelligence. Isn't the raw brain power the real intelligence, but I do agree that an INTJ will be judged by westren society's standrads as more intelligent.

    Westren society values hard working serious minded people.
    Society in the west tends to think impulsive behaviour(perceiving) is irresponsible and foolish. But other societies value going with the flow, adapting.
    Adapting is something an ESFP should be VERY good at, and if I can recall, being able to adapt to new and changing environments is one of the definitions of being smart.

    INTJs express their intelligence in their great vision and planning and ESFPs express their intelligence in being able to quickly adapt and respond to the environment. But this does not mean INTJs are totally rigid and ESFPs can't plan ahead.

  6. #426
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Well, I've already stated it, but in my not so humble opinion, ESFP "intelligence" is not intelligence. Interpersonal relationship skills may be objectively acquired, as is evident by the "mask of sanity" adopted by psychopathic serial killers, who understand social mores, understand proper social etiquette, but have no, or little, empathy. Therefore, having "people skills" is not necessarily a sign of intelligence, only concern.

    If you wish to point out certain character traits you find desirable in an ESFP, that is a different matter, but don't conflate interpersonal skills with intelligence.
    If that's any kind of an argument, than on the flip side you can say that anyone can acquire calculus, quantum physics, philosophy, and any number of other subjects- and then show off their skills- while still having little or no interest. These are subjects taught in a class or in books, while social skills are taught by watching and listening. Even an idiot can learn these subjects if they try. Intelligence has to do with how quickly a person can learn and comprehend. It has nothing to do with interest or motivation.
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  7. #427
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    You seem to be implying the same situation as the poster Evan, to whom I responded by stating that there is no reason to believe that the margin of error for the test is extremely high. Also, I have already mentioned that the test taker's dishonesty in no way invalidates the concept I am propounding. The true ESFP will exhibit traits considered "stupid." To expound on that, it should also be noted that reading the descriptions of the respective types is crucial to understanding one's own type, and is in actuality more important than the test results themselves. It would be very difficult for an ESFP to "pretend" to be an INTJ for extended periods of time, or an ESFJ an INTP, or any other type combination, with the probability of a mistaken identity increasing as one approaches one's own type.

    Of course, response bias will always be an issue, but this can be addressed by improving testing techniques. Regardless, testing is hardly the issue we're discussing, as I am referring to concrete personality types and not preferences. If you claim to be a type online, I will be inclined to believe you, and will only question you if your behavior does not seem to match your proclaimed type. There is little point in deluding yourself, and personality tests are designed to type you for who you are, which makes lying a self-defeating endeavour.
    to the blue- please explain, in stats speak, why you would NOT think that the margin of error on a self reporting survey over an ambiguous subject involving the test taker evaluating themselves honestly would NOT have a high margin of error? Do you really think that most people have the self knowlege and honesty to be RIGHT? Plus, the basic 4 letter test is very flawed and often gives people the wrong result... please say that you understand THAT?!!

    and there's a difference between having a "smart person personality" and actually BEING smart :rolli: You'd probably assume that I am kind of dumb if you met me- I laugh a lot, I love bad jokes, dumb movies and low society... I read tabloids in the checkout line and comment on them to other shoppers and can be entertained for hours with a bottle of bubble solution. I'm also a verifiable genius who got accepted to Harvard and can complete the NY Times Sunday Crossword in less than 8 minutes... and there's no way in hell that I'm an INTJ

    as my ISTJ says "there doesn't appear to be a connection in personality and intelligence- most geniuses are complete and total idiots... just look at you!"

    to use the definition of personality that we usually threw around in psych and social psych, personality is the organized pattern of behavioral characteristics of the individual. Unfortunatly, behavior doesn't necissarily reflect a person's cognitive abilities- an IxxJ will ACT more prudently than an ExxP, but that's a result of being cautious and semi-paranoid, not a result of actual intelligence. If we judged intelligence by a person's behavior Einstein would be a complete idiot!

    In other words, you're making a mistake of judging intelligence by a person's behavioral characteristics AND you're making a mistake by beleiving in a flawed study and bad research
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #428
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    Hell, there's not even tight autocorrelation within the system. If one's MBTI type can't even reliably predict one's MBTI type, that's gotta say something with respect to how well it can be used as an indicator for other traits. So, go ahead and run your statistical analysis, come up with a model, and see how tight of a correlation you actually end up with.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    and there's a difference between having a "smart person personality" and actually BEING smart :rolli: You'd probably assume that I am kind of dumb if you met me- I laugh a lot, I love bad jokes, dumb movies and low society... I read tabloids in the checkout line and comment on them to other shoppers and can be entertained for hours with a bottle of bubble solution. I'm also a verifiable genius who got accepted to Harvard and can complete the NY Times Sunday Crossword in less than 8 minutes... and there's no way in hell that I'm an INTJ
    This. This is the key. I'm sure that we all know people who "act stupid" but are not, in fact, stupid.

  9. #429
    Senior Member Ming's Avatar
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    People who act smart on the outside, and boasts that they're of a higher intelligence...

    People who act dumb on the outside, and are humble about the level of their intelligence...

    People who are arrogant, and think they're the best at everything, and thus don't try to learn...

    People who aren't, and don't think that, and try to gain every single ounce of knowledge...


    There's really no need to even say anything, because it's kind of obvious who're the real intelligent ones.

  10. #430
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    a person who shows all of their cards from the start is an idiot... I'd prefer to play dumb most of the time and shock people by being smarter than assumed than to play smart all of the time and be a disappointment

    It's much more circumspect to pretend to be an idiot and let others underestimate you... then you have power over them and they don't even know it... the element of surprise is a wonderful thing!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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