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  1. #251
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Obviously, individuals of the ESFP archetype may take offense to claims that they are the "dumbest". They are, after all, feelers.
    I really doubt anyone's offended. I'd say that this is not exactly the type of arena ESFP's care about enough to get butthurt by....considering that they are barely here to even give themselves the opportunity to care in the first place. That said, even though I might be one of the few here, I don't even know who Lex Talonis is. Fat chance I'm gonna start getting hurt by some random dude I know nothing about. And even if I did know him, the critcism is silly to me. Getting one's hate on for someone not being strongly rationalist or something is one of the most unrational things to do, in my opinion. There are multiple ways to value people. And about the only people worth hating are like in the extreme: the murderers, thieves.. that kind of shit. But hating people just for not being super smart is kind of crazy.

  2. #252
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    ^Now there's a smart ESFP

    I've followed this thread a bit and would like to put my ideas about it all in a row. I'm using "stupid" in the usual sense of the word - not intelligent.

    1) All ESFPs are dumb.
    False. Only one counter-example is needed to prove it false. See previous post for counter-example.

    2) There is a correlation between ESFP and stupidity. ESFPs tend to be more stupid.
    I don't know. Before you state such a thing, you should do some statistics. If you just shout out generalities without any ground, you're only proving you're stupid yourself.

    3) Stupidity follows from the type description. If you are smart, you're not going to choose the ESFP preference.
    Why not?
    If an ESFP has to choose between "kind" and "smart", he'll choose "kind". That's part of the preference. But you don't get a choice on intelligence. You can add to it by exercising it. If there is a correlation between type and intelligence, I think exercise would be the cause. Take eg. INTPs, they love to pick apart and reassemble theories, so after a while they'll get better at it.

    4) Using Se is stupid and childish.
    False.
    You can use Se in a childish manner - "I want the cookie now". But so you can use any function in a childish manner. I'm going to take my dominant (and the ESFP's last one) as an example: Ne - "I wish it was weekend, I want to do all this! It's weekend now, I'm bored, all those things I've imagined during school aren't interesting any more."
    I wish I could give priority to my Se on some occasions...

    5) Stupid ESFPs are funny and the ideal character in a comic movie.
    Probably yes, that's why the thread was started actually. The original question was more or less "Why are the stupid guys in comic acts ESFPs?" I can't speak from experience here. I hate comic movies based on extreme stupidity. It doesn't make me laugh, it frustrates the heck out of me.
    I also think you can imagine a stupid version of any type. Yes, even of the INTJ (a very intolerant one, maybe?). So, people who are sick of seeing stupid ESFPs, why don't you create a story yourself with a stupid other type?
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  3. #253
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I also think you can imagine a stupid version of any type. Yes, even of the INTJ (a very intolerant one, maybe?). So, people who are sick of seeing stupid ESFPs, why don't you create a story yourself with a stupid other type?
    I've worked with stupid INTJs and they're among the most irritating people in existence, because they adopt that "I'm way too smart to bother with any of you as you're all just pawns in my master plan anyway ha-ha-ha" attitude that the smart INTJs have, except they're fucking stupid and their master plan is garbage.

    They tend to believe in a lot of outlandish conspiracy theories, buy into outrageous fringe right wing propaganda and harbor a lot of unfounded prejudicial beliefs toward various demographic groups they dislike.

    We all know a Dale Gribble in real life. They are the dumb INTJs--they're just especially funny because virtually all INTJs believe themselves to be extraordinarily brilliant.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #254
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    ^Now there's a smart ESFP

    I've followed this thread a bit and would like to put my ideas about it all in a row. I'm using "stupid" in the usual sense of the word - not intelligent.

    1) All ESFPs are dumb.
    False. Only one counter-example is needed to prove it false. See previous post for counter-example.

    2) There is a correlation between ESFP and stupidity. ESFPs tend to be more stupid.
    I don't know. Before you state such a thing, you should do some statistics. If you just shout out generalities without any ground, you're only proving you're stupid yourself.

    3) Stupidity follows from the type description. If you are smart, you're not going to choose the ESFP preference.
    Why not?
    If an ESFP has to choose between "kind" and "smart", he'll choose "kind". That's part of the preference. But you don't get a choice on intelligence. You can add to it by exercising it. If there is a correlation between type and intelligence, I think exercise would be the cause. Take eg. INTPs, they love to pick apart and reassemble theories, so after a while they'll get better at it.

    4) Using Se is stupid and childish.
    False.
    You can use Se in a childish manner - "I want the cookie now". But so you can use any function in a childish manner. I'm going to take my dominant (and the ESFP's last one) as an example: Ne - "I wish it was weekend, I want to do all this! It's weekend now, I'm bored, all those things I've imagined during school aren't interesting any more."
    I wish I could give priority to my Se on some occasions...

    5) Stupid ESFPs are funny and the ideal character in a comic movie.
    Probably yes, that's why the thread was started actually. The original question was more or less "Why are the stupid guys in comic acts ESFPs?" I can't speak from experience here. I hate comic movies based on extreme stupidity. It doesn't make me laugh, it frustrates the heck out of me.
    I also think you can imagine a stupid version of any type. Yes, even of the INTJ (a very intolerant one, maybe?). So, people who are sick of seeing stupid ESFPs, why don't you create a story yourself with a stupid other type?


    ^ You're very kind. To seriously address the intelligence question though, I think my positive point is that I have a good memory and a broad sense of curiousity. Which may be some form of intelligence to some people. I just get lost when it comes to more abstract thinking. That takes a concerted effort. I have to work at it. It doesn't mean I don't do it though. Sometimes I even enjoy it *gasp*

    At my worst though, sometimes my thinking is completely overridden by momentary/miscalculating/impulsive behavior (all of the above). As far back as I remember, I've been like this. A classmate could bring a parrot for show and tell, and despite the teacher's multiple warnings, I just HAD to stick my finger in the cage and test it. And ever since, I just had to test a lot of things like that. As an adult, I still sometimes make choices where someone else would consider consequences more.. For example, I probably quit jobs easier than anyone I know. I don't think through all the time when it comes to money either. Or commitments.

  5. #255
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    2) There is a correlation between ESFP and stupidity. ESFPs tend to be more stupid.
    I don't know. Before you state such a thing, you should do some statistics. If you just shout out generalities without any ground, you're only proving you're stupid yourself.
    The larger problem with this is that it assumes one singular, linear definition of intelligence. Of course ESFPs will tend to be "less smart" if you evaluate their intelligence according to NT intelligence standards.

    It's a mistake to assume intelligence is one-dimensional.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #256
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    there is a reason why people "prefer" what they do.

    I believe in the genetic theory of personality, and believe genes play a greater role than environment when it comes to personality.

    Real world observation doesn't show the changes in personality you claim exist.
    I don't think there's any more room for debate, since we don't even agree on the basics.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    The larger problem with this is that it assumes one singular, linear definition of intelligence. Of course ESFPs will tend to be "less smart" if you evaluate their intelligence according to NT intelligence standards.

    It's a mistake to assume intelligence is one-dimensional.
    Yes! We have multiple personality tests that measure aptitude toward personal inclination.

    Personal inclination is often linked to personality.

    So you might as well say that ESFPs don't exhibit the same kind of intelligence (aka information processing aka functional orientation) as INTJs, (or any other type) - which has already been established.

  8. #258
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    My "theory" is in accordance with the test and its theoretical basis.

    Somebody who doesn't think like an INTJ, for example, will never be an INTJ, unless he is genetically predisposed to that thought pattern. How can somebody measure their own personality "change" and conclude that it was an actual change, and not just accessing another facet of their own innate personality? Preferences are driven by underlying factors (genetics) that result in that particular preference. In other words, there is a reason why people "prefer" what they do. I believe in the genetic theory of personality, and believe genes play a greater role than environment when it comes to personality. This doesn't just apply to Myers-Briggs, but to individual personality regardless of which test one uses to measure it.
    Actually, there's no science to determine conclusively that cognitive preferences are purely a result of genetics. Most likely, they are the result of a combination of hereditary predispositions and environmental factors.

    As for which one plays a greater role--I don't see much point in debating that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Real world observation doesn't show the changes in personality you claim exist. People's core personality generally stays the same throughout their lives, unless they experience significant neurological changes, such as brain trauma or prolonged drug use.

    I have never denied that ESFPs can be intelligent, nor have I claimed that other types can't borrow traits from other personalities and utilize them to whatever extent they need. My only claim is that on average, and due to innate psychological differences, certain types will perform better in certain areas than others.
    I agree that people rarely (if ever) change type, but that it's possible if the person experiences a dramatic shift in fundamental worldview, which could be caused by a number of different factors. This would resemble a religious revelation--it would be a powerful, life-altering and permanent change to a very different way of seeing and interpreting the world, and it would not happen easily.

    You're correct that some types will, on average, perform better in some areas than other types. The problem is with your assumption that intelligence is one-dimensional, or even measurable on a linear scale. There are numerous different kinds of intelligence, and most of the "intelligence tests" that we use now (IQ, SAT, etc.) are simply tests of certain kinds of intelligence (namely, iNtuitive-Thinking intelligence) that do not even factor in the kinds of intelligence to which most ESFP types are predisposed.

    In an earlier post you discussed the MBTI's "basis in scientific fact", and claimed that Keirsey had "refined" Jung's theories. As a student of Jung I must heavily disagree--Jung's ideas have been grossly misinterpreted and applied in many ways he never intended, and to suggest that Keirsey (or Myers and Briggs) have improved upon his cognitive functional models is almost laughable.

    Myers and Briggs tried to take complex Jungian concepts and turn them into a 20-minute questionnaire. What they neglected is that these ideas are merely Jung's subjective interpretations of cognition, and as such cannot be tested empirically. There is no test that can accurately determine one's Jungian psychological type...only study of the functions and self-analysis can determine this.

    MBTI's test oversimplifies (and frankly, bastardizes) a number of more nuanced Jungian ideas and attempts to assign empirical value to a purely subjective and conjectural idea. There is no basis in scientific fact because:

    A) Jung's functional descriptions have never been shown to correlate with any real biological functions in the brain,
    B) There is no way to know if MBTI's (or any other test's) questions actually accurately represent Jung's functional concepts, and
    C) The tests are dependent upon self-report.

    The best we can do with an MBTI test is determine that x% of people would describe themselves as having the characteristics of xyz type--but this doesn't really do much good since we don't know if people are capable of accurate self-description, and we don't know if the test questions accurately represent Jung's ideas in the first place.

    Having put a significant amount of study into Jung's ideas myself, I can attest that MBTI's tests frequently do a piss poor job of assigning people to the right categories. Too many people simply (unconsciously) answer how they would like to be, or wish they were, or erroneously view themselves--the test can only describe us as accurately as we can describe ourselves, rendering it all but worthless in the pursuit of determining our true psychological archetype.

    If I were you, I'd forget about type testing and recognize Jungian typology as pure philosophy, not science, until such a time as biological science advances its understanding of the human brain far enough that we can see objectively verifiable evidence of (and fully understand and explain) the nature of cognition.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #259
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Some ESFPs are stupid, some are highly intelligent. Their average IQ is probably slightly below average, but they would probably come out better in a multiple intelligence theory perspective, probably being above average in musical, bodily-kinesthetic and interpersonal intelligence. My best friend is an ESFP (at first thought to be ENFP, but cognitive processes test revealed she is clearly ESFP) with an IQ of about 150 and a musical genius, so for sure highly intelligent ones exist.
    my so is definitely not a stupid ESFP. he has a way above average IQ. extremely clever with words, good at math and very artistic. he can be a bit of a "wild child", though... follows his own path.

  10. #260
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I've worked with stupid INTJs and they're among the most irritating people in existence, because they adopt that "I'm way too smart to bother with any of you as you're all just pawns in my master plan anyway ha-ha-ha" attitude that the smart INTJs have, except they're fucking stupid and their master plan is garbage.

    They tend to believe in a lot of outlandish conspiracy theories, buy into outrageous fringe right wing propaganda and harbor a lot of unfounded prejudicial beliefs toward various demographic groups they dislike.
    I don't really see how any of these factors make one "stupid." Recognizing patterns, such as in a conspiracy, is a characteristic of intelligence. As for "prejudicial beliefs toward various demographic groups they dislike," well, that just strikes me as more of the same leftist nonsense. Humans are social animals that gravitate toward groups, which is why our society takes up the characteristics of the group, and not the individual. Discrimination against groups is perfectly natural.

    We all know a Dale Gribble in real life. They are the dumb INTJs--they're just especially funny because virtually all INTJs believe themselves to be extraordinarily brilliant.
    No, we don't all know a Dale Gribble in real life. Dale is a fictional character designed for comedic purposes, and an exaggerated one at that; Dale could easily be an FP and not an NT. Regardless, Dale is hardly stupid, only paranoid and delusional.

    ESFPs, on the other hand, have an entire web of traits that influence their intellectual abilities in a negative manner.
    "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
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