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  1. #211
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    I've noticed a trend in television sitcoms for "stupid" characters to be ESFPs.
    Notably, Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, Joey Tribbiani and Kelly Bundy.

    Obviously this a stereotype unfounded in reality, but what is it about ESFPs that makes Hollywood writers make them stupid characters, or alternatively make stupid characters into ESFPs?
    I believe that this myth is influenced by culture. Most TV writers live in either NYC or LA and reflect those sensibilities. If you look at King of the Hill the "stupid" character is Dale Gribble and he's an INxJ. On the other hand Jon Redcorn is probably ESFP, and he definitely comes off getting the upper hand over Dale. King of the Hill appeals to different sensibilities culturally, so it has a different type of fool.
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  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I believe that this myth is influenced by culture. Most TV writers live in either NYC or LA and reflect those sensibilities. If you look at King of the Hill the "stupid" character is Dale Gribble and he's an INxJ. On the other hand Jon Redcorn is probably ESFP, and he definitely comes off getting the upper hand over Dale. King of the Hill appeals to different sensibilities culturally, so it has a different type of fool.
    John Redcorn is definitely an ISTP.
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  3. #213
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtmac_46 View Post
    John Redcorn is definitely an ISTP.
    He might be ISFP, but he's no T. Every plotline about him is something Feeling related: his relationship with Nancy, wanting to get to Joseph, seeking restitution for how his people have been mistreated, etc.... His whole life revolves around his values.

    The hard part is figuring out for me is figuring out if Dale is T or F. He's not particularly developed in either area. He's just out of control, paranoid Ni. Either way in this case the INxJ is portrayed as the idiot instead of the intelligent one.
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  4. #214
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    He might be ISFP, but he's no T. Every plotline about him is something Feeling related: his relationship with Nancy, wanting to get to Joseph, seeking restitution for how his people have been mistreated, etc.... His whole life revolves around his values.

    The hard part is figuring out for me is figuring out if Dale is T or F. He's not particularly developed in either area. He's just out of control, paranoid Ni. Either way in this case the INxJ is portrayed as the idiot instead of the intelligent one.
    You cannot compare Dale's idiocy to that of Homer Simpson or Peter Griffin.

    Dale isn't even particularly stupid (many indicators show that he is highly intelligent); he is simply delusional. There's a major difference.

    John Redcorn can be either an F or a T. He is such a minor character with so little depth to him that his "intelligent" representation doesn't say anything.
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  5. #215
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    You cannot compare Dale's idiocy to that of Homer Simpson or Peter Griffin.

    Dale isn't even particularly stupid (many indicators show that he is highly intelligent); he is simply delusional. There's a major difference.

    John Redcorn can be either an F or a T. He is such a minor character with so little depth to him that his "intelligent" representation doesn't say anything.
    I can compare Dale to Homer, because Dale is the main fool in King of the Hill. (The only other possibility is Bill, but the show focuses more on Dale than Bill.) Hank is the butt of a few jokes, and so are the rest (Peggy, Bobby, etc...), but Dale is really not portrayed as intelligent or competent in any way. Instead he's totally out of touch with reality.

    Jon Redcorn role in the show is to consistently make Dale look like a fool. He screws Dale's wife for years and Dale never suspects (again showing how out of touch Dale is). TV makes fun of an ESFP stereotype by showing an incompetent ESFP like Homer. It makes fun of an INxJ stereotype by showing an incompetent INxJ like Dale.
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  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    We have been, constantly, in this thread. But you don't seem to get that. We say that you can't generalize like that, and yet you continue to assert that you can and that it's 100% accurate every time.

    Seriously, stop bullshitting. What is there to gain, to force these bullshit assertions into this thread? Everything you're posting here lacks purpose and you CANNOT prove that every ESFP is like what you've described based on a few people you've met. This is a basic rule in science, in any form of study, a basic guideline. That correlations aren't set in stone, ever. Statistical significance, in your case a few ESFPs, does NOT make a set standard. This is dangerous thinking in any field of study. This is like saying that because you win at a slot machine three times in a row, that you will win every time.

    If you've been to college or taken any psychological courses in your entire life, it's in the second chapter of your textbook. Read the section about experimenting. If you've taken any formal psychology classes then you will know that what you're asserting is bullshit just because the statistical significance is nil. You are obviously un educated if you are asserting these claims.
    Lex = INTJ, possibly introverted intuition without developed extroverted thinking in the real world to back it up?

    There is an archetypal fool who underneath enjoys a high intelligence. As some posters have pointed out, many ESFPs are intelligent but like to play the fool to an audience for laughs. It would be easy to mistake that superficial aspect for the totality of a person.

  7. #217
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    No he isn't. He's definitely an S. Where do you get the idea that he's an N?

    What I see all too often on this forum is that people point out one or two traits which are insignificant and suppose that one is of a particular temperament.

    Peter Griffin exhibits no clear signs of being an intuit. He is a typical jester who acts purely on immediate grounds and impulses.
    This is consistent with my earlier statement that given the fact that you understand MBTI the way you do, you're more likely to type stupid people as S and smart people as N.

    Unfortunately, it's consistent with your view as well

    I don't think he's present in the moment at all, though -- he's so intuitive that he's an idiot (very little judgment means the connections are essentially random).

  8. #218
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanne View Post
    Lex = INTJ, possibly introverted intuition without developed extroverted thinking in the real world to back it up?

    There is an archetypal fool who underneath enjoys a high intelligence. As some posters have pointed out, many ESFPs are intelligent but like to play the fool to an audience for laughs. It would be easy to mistake that superficial aspect for the totality of a person.
    Introverted intuition requires immediate feedback from Te. It doesn't just go as you seem to believe it does.

    Ni by itself is logical but not rational, and without Te to support it one could hardly make even the remotest of observations (unless you live in imagination land for most of your life, which would still require Te, and is an extreme that cannot possibly be argued seriously). In other words, Ni feeds directly off of Te, and Te in turn draws from Ni to come up with conclusions.

    So your conclusions are thus rendered incorrect. Ni simply draws in information it comes across, analyzes it, and Te configures it into a logical structure.

    ESFPs act like clowns because they are - innately - clowns. Their conclusions are almost always false when in a debate solely because of the way they think. For the last time: it's not just about core intelligence (i.e. processing power.)

    Just look through this thread. Almost every comment by ESFPs was founded on some false premise, and it was the NTs who put up the best arguments in your defense!

    Oh the irony!
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  9. #219
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    This is consistent with my earlier statement that given the fact that you understand MBTI the way you do, you're more likely to type stupid people as S and smart people as N.

    Unfortunately, it's consistent with your view as well

    I don't think he's present in the moment at all, though -- he's so intuitive that he's an idiot (very little judgment means the connections are essentially random).
    My deductions are drawn directly from real world observation. How can this not be the case? ESFPs don't just spontaneously generate in my head. They have an origin that is quite grounded in reality.

    Don't be an idiot.
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  10. #220
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Ni by itself is logical but not rational1
    How is it logical?

    I mean, I guess you could make the argument that all cognitive processes are logical because they follow some complex deterministic formula for the neural network that is the brain...but is that really what you're trying to say?

    How would you define Ni? I'm curious because I would imagine it's incorrect.

    All Ni does is unconsciously generate metaphors, biased towards the internal standard over the external (depth of metaphors, ie. metaphors about metaphors about metaphors vs. breadth of metaphors [Ne], ie. metaphors about all information without preference).

    Why would you think that's logical or even useful? Without Thinking (or Feeling even, since it's a conscious deductive process), there is no logic (in the common sense of the word). It's just random associations, with Ni biased towards depth and Ne biased towards breadth.

    Otherwise, you'd have to call all of cognition logical by definition -- it technically is, because it's just a complex network of neurons following deterministic physical laws. But then again, if you take that route, everything is logical since it's all made of matter/energy, which follows deterministic laws as well. Not exactly a useful way of looking at it, since it makes no distinctions.



    Listen, I agree that in order to be intelligent, you must have good use of N and T. But also F and S. S provides the raw data, N creates meaning (all unconscious so far). F consciously filters out data that is not relevant to goals, and T consciously filters out data that's not logically consistent.

    So it's true that smart ESFPs have good use of T and N. But it's also true that smart INTJs have good use of F and S (because otherwise, it's just analyzing all things, regardless of the use they have, not to mention that N can't do anything without data taken in from S).

    I don't think MBTI is about ability with any of the four functions; it's just about which functions are most comfortable and descriptive of a person's thought process. An INTJ with no F or S would be a completely useless human being in the exact same way as an ESFP with no N or T.

    Anyway, you might be falling into the trap of thinking an NT is defined by N and T, and the S and F are irrelevant. But that's just stupid. All tasks take all four functions. Type is just a descriptive tale of which preferences are preferred -- it has little to do with ability to use functions based on situations.

    The types really aren't as different as you seem to think they are.

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