User Tag List

First 311121314152363 Last

Results 121 to 130 of 847

  1. #121
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Why shouldn't statistics correlating personality type to intelligence be valid? It makes perfect sense, and if a large enough sample is tested (which, over the years, is undoubted), then the unfounded conjecture that "you never know if people are typed correctly" becomes almost insignificant.
    Think about it this way; people that score high on IQ tests are more likely to be typed as N and T.

    For example, two of the three ESFPs I mentioned previously I had originally typed as ENFP (and they scored ENFP on tests and self-reflection). Now, obviously I am not objective, but it took months of thought to realize my error, and more data than just one day's worth of conversation and testing.

    Many test questions dividing N and S actually speak more to ability to conceptualize abstract concepts than preference to. Just as questions dividing F and T sometimes speak to ability to think critically rather than preference.

    All MBTI tests that I've seen have confounded preference with ability...and for this reason, drawing any statistical conclusions really only speak to correlations between how people ANSWER test questions and intelligence rather than actual type and intelligence.



    Your stance is the biggest problem I see with MBTI, to be quite honest. It's a good descriptive tool, especially to quickly explain big parts of personality. But that's all it is. A dimensionality reduction. To get to the interesting stuff about personality, you have to delve a lot deeper.

    Your use is like calling a car a sedan and saying you know everything about it. Or saying that an SUV can't be fast because it's bigger than most cars. Well, how the hell do you know? It might have a six liter engine!

  2. #122
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    382

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mattness View Post
    i didn't read all of this but i just wanted to say that i have a masters in music theory. i can't spell all that great but i can write Musette tab that would blow your fucking mind
    Yes, I understand, you are capable of processing direct information and compiling it in a predetermined matter into something recognizable. Good little robot that you are.

  3. #123
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Every other type of "intelligence" is either subjective in construction, or clearly something taught as opposed to solved by one's own mental ability. Therefore, using my definition of intelligence, which is pretty much the standard in the field of psychometrics, it is clear that one needs to have both the innate processing power (IQ), as well as the ability to use that power effectively (personality.) From there, it is entirely reasonable to correlate intelligence with the different personality types, regardless of raw IQ amongst individuals of any one type.


    Not that i'm interested, it's just that most people base their knowledge on 'mbti and iq correlations' based on "what that other guy said" until it's accepted as some kind of scientific data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Yes, I understand, you are capable of processing direct information and compiling it in a predetermined matter into something recognizable. Good little robot that you are.
    I believe not insulting strangers would be the intelligent approach... as intellect does seem to be valuable to you. You've been more or less calling the guy stupid and he responds with some good humor, I believe appologies would be in order.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #124
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    I know an ESFP that is studying pure mathematics. I believe she's doing it to prove to herself that she can handle this type of stuff. She's smart and she's doing well, but I believe her reasons to do it are wrong - she'd have a better comparative advantage doing something else, because SF types - when smart - can easily get the most complicated concepts but they're not as good as NT types at "connecting" them with real-life situations and/or similar problems on the spot, they need to learn the skill through sheer practice. This is why imho it's harder for them to hold an abstract conversation with an NT - we can piece together lots of different stuff in an almost automatic way, while SFs seem to compartimentalize more what is "school" and what is "reality".

    I used to hang out with another ESFP that was one of the people with the highest brainpower I've ever met. She could memorize a string of phone numbers in a matter of seconds - 10 seconds 10 phone numbers, savant skills. But she dropped out of college because studying bored her too much - can't argue with that -, and eventually her INTP boyfriend left her because he was unsatisfied with her dropping out. What a moron.

    I also know 5 or 6 dumb ESFPs, of course - hey, it's a bell curve after all, they can't all be smart.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #125
    Member mattness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Posts
    71

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Yes, I understand, you are capable of processing direct information and compiling it in a predetermined matter into something recognizable. Good little robot that you are.
    huh?

  6. #126
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Yes, I understand, you are capable of processing direct information and compiling it in a predetermined matter into something recognizable. Good little robot that you are.
    And what do you do that's not predetermined?

    Again, type is about preference, not ability. I'm not saying there aren't correlations between types and abilities, I'm just saying no one can really do a good statistical study on those correlations without better testing methods.

    I would honestly be embarrassed if I were you; are you not critical enough to realize your own bias here? Do you not understand how cliche it is that an INT calls an ESF stupid? I bet you have a cliche response to this as well.

  7. #127
    Ginkgo
    Guest

    Default

    To any sort of iNtuitive personality, the ESFP may seem stupid.

    In this INFPs opinion, they ask irrelevant questions and won't stop being obnoxious. Seriously.

    However, they can be quite charismatic and charming and they are extremely driven to meet their goals.

    So, to answer your question, are they intelligent n. (General mental ability due to the integrative and adaptive functions of the brain that permit complex, unstereotyped, purposive responses to novel or changing situations, involving discrimination, generalization, learning, concept formation, inference, mental manipulation of memories, images, words and abstract symbols, eduction of relations and correlates, reasoning, and problem solving.)?

    Yes, they can be. They just have a different type of intelligence about them than the INXX. In fact, I am sometimes quite envious of their ability to completely ignore all possibilities and just do something.

  8. #128
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    382

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Think about it this way; people that score high on IQ tests are more likely to be typed as N and T.
    Yes, because N and T are generally regarded (and rightly so) as the foundational dispositions for intelligence. To twist the notion of intelligence as something based solely on society's view on it is false and grows tiresome.

    For example, two of the three ESFPs I mentioned previously I had originally typed as ENFP (and they scored ENFP on tests and self-reflection). Now, obviously I am not objective, but it took months of thought to realize my error, and more data than just one day's worth of conversation and testing.
    I don't understand the point you're attempting to make with this. It has no relevance to anything.

    Many test questions dividing N and S actually speak more to ability to conceptualize abstract concepts than preference to. Just as questions dividing F and T sometimes speak to ability to think critically rather than preference.
    I agree, the test certainly has its flaws, and I myself have found that people will sometimes go with what they prefer (i.e. what they want to be) over what they actually are. But even if this is the case, people who consistently score as a certain type will clearly display tendencies that are attributed to their type. If they do not, then that person is discounted from any particular type until they can rationally evaluate themselves (which unfortunately, some won't be able to, and Ps and NFs are notorious for this.)

    Clearly, I was referring to those who are real ESFPs, which I had gathered from the way they behave and their respective test results.

    All MBTI tests that I've seen have confounded preference with ability...and for this reason, drawing any statistical conclusions really only speak to correlations between how people ANSWER test questions and intelligence rather than actual type and intelligence.
    Even if that were the case (which I'm sure it is in some instances, due to the several flaws of MBTI), this would at worst give you inaccurate results (depending on the extent to which the results themselves are inaccurate) for those studies and those studies alone. You couldn't draw a conclusion based on every other study. It would have to be proven that people consistently score results that are far enough removed from their "real" type first, before we could legitimately research this.

    If we are to assume that at least 50% of people score truthfully, it is possible to draw conclusions through statistical mapping (i.e. by employing factor analysis to map each consecutive variable and determine a specific correlation).

    Your stance is the biggest problem I see with MBTI, to be quite honest. It's a good descriptive tool, especially to quickly explain big parts of personality. But that's all it is. A dimensionality reduction. To get to the interesting stuff about personality, you have to delve a lot deeper.
    So basically, your main concern is that the test isn't accurate enough and shouldn't be used to draw any conclusions at all, am I correct in drawing this conclusion?

    This comes off as the typical reactionary fear many Ps have of being "classified," and in so doing taking away their "special" place on the Earth by removing their precious need to be free to have options, although rarely do we hear why these options are beneficial to anyone but the Ps themselves.

    Your use is like calling a car a sedan and saying you know everything about it. Or saying that an SUV can't be fast because it's bigger than most cars. Well, how the hell do you know? It might have a six liter engine!
    No, my usage is akin to taking all of the sedan's attributes and matching them to other sedan's that are better in specific areas than it, and drawing conclusions based on my given results.

    As for the SUV, was that a serious question? I'll give you an opportunity to either revise your analogy or admit that it is horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    And what do you do that's not predetermined?

    Again, type is about preference, not ability. I'm not saying there aren't correlations between types and abilities, I'm just saying no one can really do a good statistical study on those correlations without better testing methods.
    My last post dealing with IQ and personality correlation makes a simple point that innate personality has a great impact on both IQ, and how that IQ is represented in the real world. It doesn't necessarily have to be a MBTI personality type in question. However, you have yet to demonstrate why we should expect to assume that everyone's preference will be drastically different from their actual personalities. Don't get me wrong, I understand that part and question it myself, but it is only one blemish on the test, which hardly takes away from the point I'm trying to make.

    I don't think that you understand the purpose of the MBTI format. It isn't designed to let you prefer the answer which you are not, but rather seeks to determine what you prefer, which is indicative of how you think. The questions are formatted in an "You are/do/like *blank*, Yes or No?" format. If people are not scoring what they really are, then we can draw two conclusions about these people: 1) they are attempting to be something that they aren't, and never will be, or 2) they don't know enough about themselves to answer truthfully (which is pathetic.)

    In either case, it is the fault of the test taker, and not the test itself. The test is only at fault in so much that it allows for this to happen. But then again, it's a psychological test, and until we can map and successfully correlate the brain's biochemical structure to distinct personality attributes, we will never be able to fully stop this from occurring.

    I would honestly be embarrassed if I were you; are you not critical enough to realize your own bias here? Do you not understand how cliche it is that an INT calls an ESF stupid? I bet you have a cliche response to this as well.
    Do you understand how cliche it is for a P, especially an NTP, to question the validity of anything that gives them concrete standing in the real world?

    As for a "cliche" response, I don't really know how to respond to that. Is this a cliche response?

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I believe not insulting strangers would be the intelligent approach... as intellect does seem to be valuable to you. You've been more or less calling the guy stupid and he responds with some good humor, I believe appologies would be in order.
    My apologies.

  9. #129
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Yes, because N and T are generally regarded (and rightly so) as the foundational dispositions for intelligence.
    Lol, that's your idea.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  10. #130
    deleted
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Some ESFPs are stupid, some are highly intelligent. Their average IQ is probably slightly below average, but they would probably come out better in a multiple intelligence theory perspective, probably being above average in musical, bodily-kinesthetic and interpersonal intelligence. My best friend is an ESFP (at first thought to be ENFP, but cognitive processes test revealed she is clearly ESFP) with an IQ of about 150 and a musical genius, so for sure highly intelligent ones exist.
    There is a correlation of high IQ to musical talent, but there is also a correlation of musical talent to high IQ, if you catch my drift. Neither are necessarily dependent or independent, so when people are thinking IQ is what determines intelligence, they are naive to the other possible forms of intelligence, equal but different. There is even such thing as spiritual intelligence that I'm sure a variety of people would detest to call intelligence. How does a system created by nonperfect people determine intelligence, anyway? You tell me. Obviously they just have things to express compared to those who have none to express.

Similar Threads

  1. [ESFP] The ESFP haters thread
    By King sns in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 126
    Last Post: 08-05-2016, 02:35 PM
  2. [ESFP] ESFP Quote Of The Day
    By Mal12345 in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-31-2012, 12:30 PM
  3. Replies: 96
    Last Post: 07-13-2011, 12:25 PM
  4. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-17-2011, 02:12 PM
  5. [MBTItm] ESFP/ENFP - how to get the ESFP off the ENFP?
    By Twixt in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 08-04-2009, 06:37 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO