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Darwin - The Dilemma

MerkW

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Ok.
Every source I check lists Charles Darwin as an unquestionable INTP.
At the same time, Jung originally claimed that Darwin is a clear example of an Extroverted Thinking type. Wouldn't Jung know his own theory better than others?

So what is he?

INTP?
IxTJ?
ExTJ?

Please back up your choice with specific reasoning.
 

Totenkindly

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I have not done a specific study of Darwin.

Originally I had considered him more Te... (with an S focus) ... but when I read "Finding Darwin's God" as well as "The Blind Watchmaker" (I think this one also discussed Darwin's private life, although the other was far more extensive), I can understand where an INTP read comes from.

One of the most intriguing aspects of Darwin is that he remained tortured about his own religious faith. He began as a theist but was aware that his theory could really put religion in a quandary... and the reason he stalled publishing for 17 years or so (he had his results around 1840 but did not publish until the mid/late 1850's) was because he did not want to destroy people's faiths and was afraid of causing conflict.

His desire to avoid conflict and not interfere with other people's beliefs can be very INTP. As also was the fact that he could not deny the truth of the evidence he was finding in his many voyages among the islands. So he was rather stuck... Te is good at organizing the outer world into a way that fits one's inner desires/ideas. Darwin did not seem to do that. He took the evidence he found on the outside, then used it to develop his theory... even if he was uncomfortable with where his theory led.

He eventually seemed to become more agnostic -- not really sure what he believed. (Any anecdotes about a deathbed conversion were fabricated.)
 

Gabe

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Ok.
Every source I check lists Charles Darwin as an unquestionable INTP.
At the same time, Jung originally claimed that Darwin is a clear example of an Extroverted Thinking type. Wouldn't Jung know his own theory better than others?

So what is he?

INTP?
IxTJ?
ExTJ?

Please back up your choice with specific reasoning.

Jung lists him as an extraverted thinking type. I'll get the quote soon! (I just read it)
Anyway, I'll believe Jung for now.
 

wildcat

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Jung lists him as an extraverted thinking type. I'll get the quote soon! (I just read it)
Anyway, I'll believe Jung for now.
Every day the monk toiled in the garden. He threw away the rotten leaves, he pruned and watered the plants.
One day he wrote a letter to Darwin.

A bolder person would have knocked at Darwin's door.
He would have expected Charlie to have the kitchen stove warm and the kettle ready.
Nothing better than a nice cup of strong English tea to warm up the rainy day.

I do not think he really expected to have an answer. He was not like Charlie.
After all, he was an INTP.
 

Geoff

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I have not done a specific study of Darwin.

Originally I had considered him more Te... (with an S focus) ... but when I read "Finding Darwin's God" as well as "The Blind Watchmaker" (I think this one also discussed Darwin's private life, although the other was far more extensive), I can understand where an INTP read comes from.

One of the most intriguing aspects of Darwin is that he remained tortured about his own religious faith. He began as a theist but was aware that his theory could really put religion in a quandary... and the reason he stalled publishing for 17 years or so (he had his results around 1840 but did not publish until the mid/late 1850's) was because he did not want to destroy people's faiths and was afraid of causing conflict.

His desire to avoid conflict and not interfere with other people's beliefs can be very INTP. As also was the fact that he could not deny the truth of the evidence he was finding in his many voyages among the islands. So he was rather stuck... Te is good at organizing the outer world into a way that fits one's inner desires/ideas. Darwin did not seem to do that. He took the evidence he found on the outside, then used it to develop his theory... even if he was uncomfortable with where his theory led.

He eventually seemed to become more agnostic -- not really sure what he believed. (Any anecdotes about a deathbed conversion were fabricated.)

I wonder if he was a methodical thinker.. a very intelligent ST of some type.. led to a powerful conclusion by a detailed analysis of the information he gathered.

Yeah, I know, oddball possibility.
 

The Ü™

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Keirsey lists him as INTP. Socionics also generally agrees that he was an INTp.

(In socionics, Einstein was an ENTp.)
 

Gabe

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Keirsey lists him as INTP. Socionics also generally agrees that he was an INTp.

(In socionics, Einstein was an ENTp.)

Kiersey Shmiersey. The one expert I don't trust at all to type people correctly. He thinks that Ghandi is an INFJ, Donald trump is an ESTP, Jung is an INFJ (give me a break), Nicola Tesla is an ENTP (Tesla always struck me as an extreme INTJ), Mozart is an ISFP (please!), Woody Allen is an ISTP (That would be convienient, but I always can't help seeing Woody Allen as an embarrasing example of ENFP).
 

EsoteriEccentri

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I think he was an ISTP, err... no back up reasoning except that he reminds me of someone I know ^^ Not that I knew Darwin or anything =(
Plus his interests - shooting ect. seem more S to me.
Here's for an uneducated guess.
 

The Ü™

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Kiersey Shmiersey. The one expert I don't trust at all to type people correctly. He thinks that Ghandi is an INFJ, Donald trump is an ESTP, Jung is an INFJ (give me a break), Nicola Tesla is an ENTP (Tesla always struck me as an extreme INTJ), Mozart is an ISFP (please!), Woody Allen is an ISTP (That would be convienient, but I always can't help seeing Woody Allen as an embarrasing example of ENFP).

I think Mozart was an ENxP. Most of Keirsey's ISFPs are actually more likely ENxPs.

Woody Allen is probably ENTP.
 

redacted

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I think he was an ISTP, err... no back up reasoning except that he reminds me of someone I know ^^ Not that I knew Darwin or anything =(
Plus his interests - shooting ect. seem more S to me.
Here's for an uneducated guess.

but he came up with a completely revolutionary idea = N

also, wouldn't SP types be less interested in theory?
 

EsoteriEccentri

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but he came up with a completely revolutionary idea = N

also, wouldn't SP types be less interested in theory?

I'm just going on what we learnt in school, particularly about his life when he was young.
He wasn't a genius, that's a fact, but he was quite clever. ISTPs are quite open minded, and though maybe they're not physicists or philosophers I don't see why he couldn't be an ISTP. Because he came up with a revolutionary idea DOESN'T necessarily mean he was an N.
Besides, he wasn't the first to come up with it. His grandfather had ideas about it, and there were several other scientists at the same time who had had similar ideas (in fact a letter from Alfred Wallace outlining the whole idea to the very word was the thing that pushed him into action displaying his book to the world anyway, so that someone else didn't get in first.)


...and he was born in my home town, lol ^^
He went to the boys' school, I go to the girls' school.

It wasn't really theory. He saw that the common explanation just wouldn't work, because of what he had seen on his voyage. He set out to think of a reasonable answer. He had hard evidence, (in the form of many many dead things)
 

redacted

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I'm just going on what we learnt in school, particularly about his life when he was young.
He wasn't a genius, that's a fact, but he was quite clever. ISTPs are quite open minded, and though maybe they're not physicists or philosophers I don't see why he couldn't be an ISTP. Because he came up with a revolutionary idea DOESN'T necessarily mean he was an N.
Besides, he wasn't the first to come up with it. His grandfather had ideas about it, and there were several other scientists at the same time who had had similar ideas (in fact a letter from Alfred Wallace outlining the whole idea to the very word was the thing that pushed him into action displaying his book to the world anyway, so that someone else didn't get in first.)


...and he was born in my home town, lol ^^
He went to the boys' school, I go to the girls' school.

It wasn't really theory. He saw that the common explanation just wouldn't work, because of what he had seen on his voyage. He set out to think of a reasonable answer. He had hard evidence, (in the form of many many dead things)

good points. plus, ISTP has tertiary Ni. hmmm.
 

Geoff

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but he came up with a completely revolutionary idea = N

also, wouldn't SP types be less interested in theory?

It wasn't revolutionary to the other people also working on it... he was (as with most scientific breakthroughs) in a situation where others had similar thoughts, and was building on the work of others. He owed a heavy debt to one or two, for sure. He just so beautifully realised it and refined it.
 

EsoteriEccentri

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It wasn't revolutionary to the other people also working on it... he was (as with most scientific breakthroughs) in a situation where others had similar thoughts, and was building on the work of others. He owed a heavy debt to one or two, for sure. He just so beautifully realised it and refined it.

Aw =( There's not many famous people to have come from little old Shrewsbury! And you have to go and discredit our greatest! I agree though. I think he came up with the idea pretty much on his own, but unfortunately others did too (although most of them probably didn't have as much evidence as he did as he got most of his evidence and the idea really began forming in his mind when he saw the finches on the Galapagos(sp?) islands. So maybe in that way he had an advantage!)
 

The Ü™

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The thing is that any type can be revolutionary, but generally, the S is revolutionary on a subconscious level -- they make revolutionary discoveries (but it most likely wasn't their intention). The N, on the other hand, is consciously on the lookout for something new. S(he) doesn't just discover them. The S primary motivation is to explore, the N is motivated to create, and so with both, revolutionizing can potentially arrive during the journey.

Hence, sometimes the N can appear foolish by having an idea that's original to him or her, but isn't particularly imaginative or creative to the rest of the world. They consciously attempt to think outside of the box, regardless of whether or not the ideas are really revolutionary and life-changing.
 

EsoteriEccentri

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The thing is that any type can be revolutionary, but generally, the S is revolutionary on a subconscious level -- they make revolutionary discoveries (but it most likely wasn't their intention). The N, on the other hand, is consciously on the lookout for something new. S(he) doesn't just discover them. The S primary motivation is to explore, the N is motivated to create, and so with both, revolutionizing can potentially arrive during the journey.

Hence, sometimes the N can appear foolish by having an idea that's original to him or her, but isn't particularly imaginative or creative to the rest of the world. They consciously attempt to think outside of the box, regardless of whether or not the ideas are really revolutionary and life-changing.

Darwin didn't plan to make a revolutionary discovery ^^
 

Geoff

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Aw =( There's not many famous people to have come from little old Shrewsbury! And you have to go and discredit our greatest! I agree though. I think he came up with the idea pretty much on his own, but unfortunately others did too (although most of them probably didn't have as much evidence as he did as he got most of his evidence and the idea really began forming in his mind when he saw the finches on the Galapagos(sp?) islands. So maybe in that way he had an advantage!)

You know.. I've just been reading a short biography of him, and I see he did badly academically because he wasn't interested in the lessons, and kept doing stuff like unauthorised chemistry experiments (for which, read explosions, I expect!)

Makes me go back towards INTP...
 

EsoteriEccentri

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You know.. I've just been reading a short biography of him, and I see he did badly academically because he wasn't interested in the lessons, and kept doing stuff like unauthorised chemistry experiments (for which, read explosions, I expect!)

Makes me go back towards INTP...

Still he was very interested in stuff like shooting (though I know that does not necessarily indicate S - but then neither does doing badly academically indicate N ^^)
 
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