Juno and Superbad characters

[Orangey]

I think you're generalizing the characterization of what 'T' constitutes. Logical rationale happens irrespective of dominant trait expression -- emotion is a logical pattern of instinctive event spurred by a mechanical connection to environment.

IIRC, Juno's rationale for not getting the abortion was likely an Fi event -- she was exceedingly uncomfortable in the clinic, and didn't want to go through with the procedure on this basis.

While I agree that Fi was likely in charge of her reasoning here, I don't think it necessarily permeates her cognitive being, as one would otherwise expect of an ISFP. We don't see Juno displaying 'stereotypical' woe-is-me behavior, which could be argued as the sort of resilience one would normally find in an ExTP when dealing with an event as profound as teenage pregnancy. Her flippant treatment of Bleeker is also an ExTP trope, as is her intellectual infatuation with the hobbies of Mark.

Admittedly, we're in kind of a weird, nebulous space, as we're dissecting cinematic characters that might not conform to the sort of behavior otherwise anticipated against type. At best, I'll concede that Juno could be an ExTP, versus ENTP...



While I see what you're saying here (ISFP = interest in art), I think you do your reasoning a disservice here. I daresay we could argue just as easily that the 'Hamburger' phone is an example of Ne connection. Or, that her obsession with fake tobacco pipes / weird oversized sunglasses isn't also an example of Ne in motion.

Not much can be concluded from her interests in art. Art is generally a conceptual entity culled from a realistic baseline. (Munch's 'The Scream' as an expression of hopelessness and depression he felt from personal alienation/his array of mental illnesses).

As art flows 'twixt N and S realms, it's a tough nut to sell as evidence.



I don't think offering personal behavior as evidence (to your bolded point) makes much sense. As a counterpoint, I could simply retort that I see much of myself in Juno, and she is therefore ENTP as a result...

Exactly.

Edit: And yes, improvisational is a word (a pretty common one, actually).

 

[Synarch]

How can we talk about her room decor as an expression of type when a set designer created this for altogether different purposes than the screenwriter did in creating the character??

Also, we may assume that Juno is likely based on the writer Diablo Cody, yes? If you type her, it will likely be the same as Juno. It's generally easier to create characters based on yourself.

 

[Tiltyred]

Improvisional? Is that even a word? And if I were to assume it was a word, that is not the least bit improvised. Improvisation, by definition, is done spontaneously, on the spot. This event clearly took an inordinate amount of planning, and that's actually where a lot of the humor in it comes from in my opinion. She set up furniture on someone's front lawn for god's sake!

It took zero planning -- she did it on the fly.

And I meant "improvisational."

Improvisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kind of an interesting entry.

 

[Quinlan]

This is very interesting that two types that should be theoretically poles apart (sharing no primary processes and only one preference) can still be confused for each other.

I would say one thing though, that in general being unfazed by major things is unhealthy SPness, being too stuck in the moment to see any negative possibilities, whereas I would expect a Ne dominant to be very aware and concerned about possibilities.

 

[zago]

As further evidence, because orangey thinks my argument has a dearth of it, I'd simply like to address E/I. Juno seems to have a very tight circle of friends. We see Bleeker and we see her best friend Leah. The high school at large is portrayed as a stream of faceless teens walking down a crowded hallway as Juno walks alone. The cinematography itself seems to have a kind of introversion to it. Compare it to a movie that seems to rush through a bunch of characters with smaller parts. Hell, compare it to the high school in Superbad. Juno struck me as, for the most part, quiet. Introverts can talk a lot too at times, especially around close relations, and there is plenty of that. Otherwise, though, Juno doesn't doesn't talk to anyone that we never see again. The movie doesn't have reason to show her being quiet.

 

[zago]

Exactly.

Edit: And yes, improvisational is a word (a pretty common one, actually).

It is a word, a word that was not said.

 

[Orangey]

How can we talk about her room decor as an expression of type when a set designer created this for altogether different purposes than the screenwriter did in creating the character??

Also, we may assume that Juno is likely based on the writer Diablo Cody, yes? If you type her, it will likely be the same as Juno. It's generally easier to create characters based on yourself.

Okay, this is getting confusing. Are we talking about the fictional character as she was displayed in the movie, or are we talking about the conception of the character in the writer's mind, or what? I keep seeing this treated as though there is a Juno character outside of the movie...a real Juno, as it were. If we want to type the writer, that may give us a clue about how Juno was intended to be portrayed (if it is the case that the she meant to make Juno an image of herself). But I still think Juno's character in the movie should be analyzed on its own terms.

 

[Orangey]

It is a word, a word that was not said.

Oh I see, lol. So my attempt to pick on you failed because you were actually picking on Tiltyred. Nice.

 

[zago]

It took zero planning -- she did it on the fly.

And I meant "improvisational."

Improvisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kind of an interesting entry.

If she did that on the fly, everything is done on the fly. She got the idea when she saw the lawn chair at the yard sale, and it developed from there. She winds up with the thing and an elaborate display in front of Bleeker's front door, even with a pipe for added effect. Lugging a huge chair to someone's lawn and setting up a display is improvising how?

Your wiki link even says it: improvisation is "in the moment and in response to the stimulus of one's immediate environment and inner feelings." The only thing spontaneous about this situation was the idea to do it itself. The rest was elaborately planned to have a highly striking visual, dramatic, and ironic effect.

 

[Tiltyred]

If she did that on the fly, everything is done on the fly. She got the idea when she saw the lawn chair at the yard sale, and it developed from there. She winds up with the thing and an elaborate display in front of Bleeker's front door, even with a pipe for added effect. Lugging a huge chair to someone's lawn and setting up a display is improvising how?

Your wiki link even says it: improvisation is "in the moment and in response to the stimulus of one's immediate environment and inner feelings." The only thing spontaneous about this situation was the idea to do it itself. The rest was elaborately planned to have a highly striking visual, dramatic, and ironic effect.

You know what? You're absolutely right.

 

[zago]

I would like Jennifer's opinion here. I haven't seen a response from her in the thread, and I think she has the best chance of judging this right.

Otherwise, I think what we have is a conundrum because Juno is fictional. Her lines are script, and I think that makes her sound more N than she really would be. Her articulation is not something I took for granted in the movie--I kept on thinking, "nobody would say that." I may grant the fact that her words themselves are N-ish, but everything else is ISFP. She may simply be an inconsistent, unrealistic character with traits that stick out of both Ne and Fi-Se.

 

[Qre:us]

If she did that on the fly, everything is done on the fly. She got the idea when she saw the lawn chair at the yard sale, and it developed from there. She winds up with the thing and an elaborate display in front of Bleeker's front door, even with a pipe for added effect. Lugging a huge chair to someone's lawn and setting up a display is improvising how?

Your wiki link even says it: improvisation is "in the moment and in response to the stimulus of one's immediate environment and inner feelings." The only thing spontaneous about this situation was the idea to do it itself. The rest was elaborately planned to have a highly striking visual, dramatic, and ironic effect.

Why did she do the lawn chair in front of Beeker's front yard again? What do you mean by ironic effect?

 

[Orangey]

Otherwise, I think what we have is a conundrum because Juno is fictional. Her lines are script, and I think that makes her sound more N than she really would be. Her articulation is not something I took for granted in the movie--I kept on thinking, "nobody would say that." I may grant the fact that her words themselves are N-ish, but everything else is ISFP. She may simply be an inconsistent, unrealistic character with traits that stick out of both Ne and Fi-Se.

Than she would be if what? If she were a real person? How do we know what she would really be like outside of how she is portrayed in the movie? What basis do you have for thinking that her "artistic" behavior (or essence, or whatever you said it was) is more realistic, and hence a more relevant, characteristic? If she is a totally unrealistic character, then we either have to be fine with saying that she is untypeable, or if we are going to type her anyway, we need to treat all characteristics equally. You are erroneously privileging some characteristics over others in terms of importance to type.

I think you may be onto something about her being an introvert, though. She does have a fairly small, tight-knit group of friends.

 

[zago]

Why did she do the lawn chair in front of Beeker's front yard again? What do you mean by ironic effect?

Ironic because she was telling him she was pregnant, and she was sitting there in his front lawn in an armchair with a pipe in her mouth. This gives a totally false impression about the news she was about to break, making it very ironic.

 

[zago]

Than she would be if what? If she were a real person? How do we know what she would really be like outside of how she is portrayed in the movie? What basis do you have for thinking that her "artistic" behavior (or essence, or whatever you said it was) is more realistic, and hence a more relevant, characteristic? If she is a totally unrealistic character, then we either have to be fine with saying that she is untypeable, or if we are going to type her anyway, we need to treat all characteristics equally. You are erroneously privileging some characteristics over others in terms of importance to type.

I think you may be onto something about her being an introvert, though. She does have a fairly small, tight-knit group of friends.

Like I said, her dialog stuck out like a sore thumb against the rest of her character. That's why I am singling out the dialog as N and saying that the rest of her is what should would really be like.

 

[Qre:us]

Ironic because she was telling him she was pregnant, and she was sitting there in his front lawn in an armchair with a pipe in her mouth. This gives a totally false impression about the news she was about to break, making it very ironic.

I thought so, that you didn't pick up on the sig. of the chair. It wasn't random because Juno didn't MEAN for it to be random. That is the surface reaction she was going for...but....

Um...it was a total Ne connection, wanted to see if you picked up on that. The movie's first line is, "It started with a chair". Ne likes to make a full circle - it can be very well utilized for 'poetic justice'.

She recreated the 'night' for Bleeker when she broke the news of her pregnancy to him, on his front lawn, sitting on that 'same' chair where they had le sex. She was finding morbid humour in the whole situation.

 

[zago]

I thought so, that you didn't pick up on the sig. of the chair. It wasn't random because Juno didn't MEAN for it to be random. That is the surface reaction she was going for...but....

Um...it was a total Ne connection, wanted to see if you picked up on that. The movie's first line is, "It started with a chair". Ne likes to make a full circle - it can be very well utilized for 'poetic justice'.

She recreated the 'night' for Bleeker when she broke the news of her pregnancy to him, on his front lawn, sitting on that 'same' chair where they had le sex. She was finding morbid humour in the whole situation.

Hm. I forgot it was the chair they porked on, actually. Still, I think that can be interpreted as Fi or Ne. Fi would imply a close personal relationship with the chair--it is part of her identity and the identity of the situation as a whole.

Also, if anything this is more of a literary device than characterization of Juno. I doubt the author was thinking about Juno's internal motivations for using the chair. I think it worked well in the movie, though, now that I see that it was the chair she got boned in.

 

[Orangey]

Like I said, her dialog stuck out like a sore thumb against the rest of her character. That's why I am singling out the dialog as N and saying that the rest of her is what should would really be like.

Meh, then this is a difference in perception, because (in relation to her character) I don't think that the dialogue was out of line with the rest of her character. If we lined up some aspects of her behavior like in an IQ test - witty speaking style, dresses quirky, decorates room with odd things she likes, likes alternative music, has careless attitude, has appreciation for novelty - I don't think I'd be picking speaking style as the odd one out.

So in relation to the rest of her character as displayed in the movie, I don't find her speaking to be out of synch with the other aspects of her character portrayed. And if we're talking about in relation to reality, I find a lot of aspects of her character to be equally contrived and unrealistic, so the speaking can't be singled out as a trait to ignore on the basis of being unrealistic.

 

[zago]

Juno could definitely be described as pensive.

Pensive and ETP don't mix.

 

[Tiltyred]

I missed that, too. Where is she pensive?