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  1. #81
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Hm. I forgot it was the chair they porked on, actually. Still, I think that can be interpreted as Fi or Ne. Fi would imply a close personal relationship with the chair--it is part of her identity and the identity of the situation as a whole.
    Fi would be Bleeker still holding on and cherishing Juno's cherry-designed undies (another fun quirk - "cherry" - childish underwear/cherry).

    Ne says, "This is how it lines up - are you seeing the connection?" Ne would use the chair, Fi would cherish it.

    The opening scene, the chair is out on Juno's lawn, she's staring at it like, "YOU! It was YOU!!"...outside the lawn meaning, she's done with it, it's being moved out. Scrapped like the memory from the night. *lightbulb*

    Then, she finds an 'use' for it. Right down to the lampshade sitting beside the chair - all recreated in the 'breaking the news' scene. Unless she's also Fi-attached to the lamp as well.

    Also, if anything this is more of a literary device than characterization of Juno. I doubt the author was thinking about Juno's internal motivations for using the chair. I think it worked well in the movie, though, now that I see that it was the chair she got boned in.
    You're playing fast & loose with what YOU think substantiates as 'evidence' for profiling the character. How do you know that the author wasn't thinking about Juno's internal motivation - a view into her thinking/personality - with how the chair is used? You doubting, and saying, 'if anything it is MORE of a ....' doesn't hold much water unless you can back that up.

  2. #82
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Pensive and ETP don't mix.
    Mind elaborating?

    The xNTP is generally considered to be well-researched in his intellectual dalliances.

    Do you consider Extroversion to be the nullification of this behavior?

  3. #83
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    An ISFP's outlook on events could be described as deepening and internal. An ENTP's could be described as broadening and external.

    ENTPs are known for their living life in the future. They always have a vision for tomorrow. They are thrilled by ideas and possibilities. Did Juno seem to have this sort of outlook on life? Not from what I could see. Juno seemed to take her external situation for granted and concern herself with her inner feelings about her situation. A movie about a pregnant ENTP would have been sooooo different. It would have been more external, the tone would have been completely different (much more jovial), and we would have seen more people and places. What we did see was a deepening internal setting. We saw introspection. We saw characters coming to terms with their feelings. We heard pensive music. How, in the very least, could this not be introverted? Secondly, how is this introspective, reflective.

    Neither Juno nor the movie was very philosophical either, and that's a big N giveaway. It was about a common struggle, teenage pregnancy, and one quirky girl's emotional battle with it. Juno was anything but idealistic, as Ns, and especially ENs, tend to be. She didn't try to make any grand statements about life or her pregnancy. She took part in the struggle, taking the situation itself for granted.

  4. #84
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Regarding "pensive":

    I think of the word as quite mood-heavy. A pensive person has a reflective, almost sad demeanor. They always seem to be in the midst of a deep inner matter. ENTPs may be thoughtful, but not pensive.

    The soundtrack was pensive. Juno herself often seemed to be mulling things over in her mind, so there are many examples, but the one I recall first is when she sees Vanessa at the mall and realizes what a loving mother she would make. Juno doesn't say anything to Leah about it, she merely stares down at Vanessa with a reflective look on her face. Inner vs. outer. I think an ENTP would have barely even had an internal dialog here. An ENTP would have been talking to Leah throughout the thought process, making it interactive.

    Regarding Fi and the chair:

    Does Fi mean that everything it touches must be cherished? Are Fi folks allowed to feel otherwise about items that have been a part of their deepest encounters? I see what you're saying, but I don't think Fi needs to always be positive. I think it is based on your identity's relationship to the object--that it was important, but not necessarily cherished. Her use of the chair indicated that it played an important part in her identification with the event. It adds a profoundly personal touch to the common event of a teen getting pregnant. Only she and Bleeker conceived on that chair. That's their chair, whether or not it is cherished. Fi-Se, this is. After all, what is there to cherish about finding out you're pregnant in high school?

  5. #85
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Regarding "pensive":
    I think of the word as quite mood-heavy. A pensive person has a reflective, almost sad demeanor. They always seem to be in the midst of a deep inner matter. ENTPs may be thoughtful, but not pensive.
    Thanks for the clarification. My definition is a bit less exclusive, but I can better see from where you derive your 'ETP' baseline.

    I don't think this nugget of data necessarily moves her final MBTI very much. One could just as easily counter that Juno's impulsive, dismissive behavior of Mark after learning of his impending decision to divorce Vanessa (even as an ExTP) suggests a propensity towards a 'pensive' internal profile.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    An ISFP's outlook on events could be described as deepening and internal. An ENTP's could be described as broadening and external.

    ENTPs are known for their living life in the future. They always have a vision for tomorrow. They are thrilled by ideas and possibilities. Did Juno seem to have this sort of outlook on life? Not from what I could see. Juno seemed to take her external situation for granted and concern herself with her inner feelings about her situation. A movie about a pregnant ENTP would have been sooooo different. It would have been more external, the tone would have been completely different (much more jovial), and we would have seen more people and places. What we did see was a deepening internal setting. We saw introspection. We saw characters coming to terms with their feelings. We heard pensive music. How, in the very least, could this not be introverted? Secondly, how is this introspective, reflective.

    Neither Juno nor the movie was very philosophical either, and that's a big N giveaway. It was about a common struggle, teenage pregnancy, and one quirky girl's emotional battle with it. Juno was anything but idealistic, as Ns, and especially ENs, tend to be. She didn't try to make any grand statements about life or her pregnancy. She took part in the struggle, taking the situation itself for granted.

    ISFP leads with Fi, ENTP leads with Ne. There is a distinct lack of feelings from Juno's side (an almost flippant attitude like, 'well, shyte, this sucker is real....well, now what?'). An ISFP would be Fi-driven in their reaction, which Juno was not.

    Even in the ultrasound scene, Juno comments, something along the lines of why she can't understand why people get all teary-eyed and cry when seeing ultrasound because it just looks like an alien, or something.

    Your bolded is pivotal part of the story, a character that is so anti-thesis of emotions...finally coming to terms with it. Not a Fi primary likely.
    That was a huge story-arch, character development. Juno, who is so laisser-faire with feelings, culmunates in the final scene, after the birth, as Bleeker lies with her on the hospital bed....and she finally, cries.

    She rarely looks "in"....not with her feelings with Bleeker (she told him that they had sex out of boredom), not with the overstepping of bounds with a married man, not with what to do once she found out she was pregnant.

    The most rational choice to her was - I'm a kid, I can't be a mom. So get rid of it.
    And, when she goes to the abortion clinic and meets her picketing anti-abortion friend outside, it doesn't phase Juno when the girl tells her that the baby has a hearbeat. But, a random comment, 'it has fingernails', makes her pause.
    Which...becomes the symbolic reason she opts out of the abortion. She sees the 'reality' of fingernails everywhere - from another woman at the clinic clicking her fingernails, to another who's playing with her fingernails, another who's putting on nailpolish (and for us audience, as an ironic humour - her step-mother is a nail technician). THIS "random" (Ne-connected + Fe) reason makes her opt out of the abortion, when we the audience, know it's just a symbolism for her anxiety...which she herself can't even place or identify (shadow Fi).

  7. #87
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Again, I don't think Fi needs to correlate with appearing emotional or having expected emotional reactions. It is rebellious, and focuses on unconditional human values.

    It has a heartbeat? So what, you hear that all the time from these schmucks! What do they expect me to feel? It has fingernails? Wow, what a profoundly human detail... now it sinks in.

    Part of the rebellion is tertiary Ni (yes I went there). It prompts dominant Fi to say "this is what they want me to think." So when she sees a picture of her fetus and doesn't feel much, this shows a lack of Fe but not Fi. Ultra sound actually is a pretty shitty picture of your baby... I mean, she already knew the thing was there, what good does a grainy, invasive picture do her?

    Fe is not rebellious, Fi is, so I'm not surprised that Juno was unemotional about a lot of the things people are typically emotional about. Fi waits for events that truly strike it. Fe reacts in a predictable way. Rebellious Fi is the key, in my opinion. I can easily see how a dominant Fi would appear unemotional about something traditionally thought of as fucking major. If anything, Juno had to cope with the Fe and Te stances of those around her which clearly and immediately see the pregnancy as the most important thing in her life. She wasn't ready for that; she had to digest this emotionally at her own pace.

    She probably understood quite well that she was expected to have a big reaction to being pregnant and run around saying "oh my gosh I'm pregnant this is such a big deal," but everyone else kind of did that for her. It is understandable for an ISFP to contrast those reactions in others. That cemented her role as a social oddity, someone quite different from the norm.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Again, I don't think Fi needs to correlate with appearing emotional or having expected emotional reactions. It is rebellious, and focuses on unconditional human values.
    Fi does? Please refer me to which definition of Fi matches this. I thought it was more about personal, inner (the 'self') values? Focusing on 'unconditional' human values is external....Fe.

    Part of the rebellion is tertiary Ni (yes I went there). It prompts dominant Fi to say "this is what they want me to think." So when she sees a picture of her fetus and doesn't feel much, this shows a lack of Fe but not Fi. Ultra sound actually is a pretty shitty picture of your baby... I mean, she already knew the thing was there, what good does a grainy, invasive picture do her?
    For someone who you are supporting is very internal, gets from the inside, she does seem to rely an awful lot (according to your bolded: above^ and below V), on the 'external', getting from the outside. Which is it?

    Fe is not rebellious, Fi is, so I'm not surprised that Juno was unemotional about a lot of the things people are typically emotional about. Fi waits for events that truly strike it. Fe reacts in a predictable way. Rebellious Fi is the key, in my opinion. I can easily see how a dominant Fi would appear unemotional about something traditionally thought of as fucking major. If anything, Juno had to cope with the Fe and Te stances of those around her which clearly and immediately see the pregnancy as the most important thing in her life. She wasn't ready for that; she had to digest this emotionally at her own pace.
    Since Fi is an introverted function, the only way to see its mechanisms in the external world is through the supported extroverted function. Fi+Se in ISFP. A rebellion of Fi would have been supported by Se. Can you point me to even ONE example of this?

    She probably understood quite well that she was expected to have a big reaction to being pregnant and run around saying "oh my gosh I'm pregnant this is such a big deal," but everyone else kind of did that for her. It is understandable for an ISFP to contrast those reactions in others. That cemented her role as a social oddity, someone quite different from the norm.
    Not everyone actually, even, Juno was perturbed that 'not everyone had that reaction' -> The underlined: actually, we see a Fe humour in her, when she first calls her best friend with the news of her pregnancy, she questions her friend's nonchalant response with the whole thing, until Juno finally convinces her friend that it's REAL, and her friend shows subsequent shocked reaction. Juno then comments, "NOW that's kinda the reaction I was looking for."

    * btw, yes, this thread prompted me to watch the movie again, just now.

  9. #89
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Again, I don't think Fi needs to correlate with appearing emotional or having expected emotional reactions. It is rebellious, and focuses on unconditional human values.

    It has a heartbeat? So what, you hear that all the time from these schmucks! What do they expect me to feel? It has fingernails? Wow, what a profoundly human detail... now it sinks in.

    Part of the rebellion is tertiary Ni (yes I went there). It prompts dominant Fi to say "this is what they want me to think." So when she sees a picture of her fetus and doesn't feel much, this shows a lack of Fe but not Fi. Ultra sound actually is a pretty shitty picture of your baby... I mean, she already knew the thing was there, what good does a grainy, invasive picture do her?

    Fe is not rebellious, Fi is, so I'm not surprised that Juno was unemotional about a lot of the things people are typically emotional about. Fi waits for events that truly strike it. Fe reacts in a predictable way. Rebellious Fi is the key, in my opinion. I can easily see how a dominant Fi would appear unemotional about something traditionally thought of as fucking major. If anything, Juno had to cope with the Fe and Te stances of those around her which clearly and immediately see the pregnancy as the most important thing in her life. She wasn't ready for that; she had to digest this emotionally at her own pace.

    She probably understood quite well that she was expected to have a big reaction to being pregnant and run around saying "oh my gosh I'm pregnant this is such a big deal," but everyone else kind of did that for her. It is understandable for an ISFP to contrast those reactions in others. That cemented her role as a social oddity, someone quite different from the norm.
    That was really well said, I wish Fi was more often defined this way.
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  10. #90
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Fi does? Please refer me to which definition of Fi matches this. I thought it was more about personal, inner (the 'self') values? Focusing on 'unconditional' human values is external....Fe.
    Lenore Thomson, Personality Type: An Owner's Manual. We just have a misunderstanding here. I mean 'unconditional' in an internal way--can't be broken no matter what the external expectations are.



    For someone who you are supporting is very internal, gets from the inside, she does seem to rely an awful lot (according to your bolded: above^ and below V), on the 'external', getting from the outside. Which is it?


    Since Fi is an introverted function, the only way to see its mechanisms in the external world is through the supported extroverted function. Fi+Se in ISFP. A rebellion of Fi would have been supported by Se. Can you point me to even ONE example of this?
    I'd say her calling the fetus an "alien looking thing" could be construed as Se. That clearly prompts a visceral reaction in others and is a style Se types are accustomed to using. We're getting into hairy, speculative areas here.

    There is such a difference between the tertiary Ni of an ISFP and the tertiary Fe of an ENTP, though. Tertiary Fe is something ENTPs rely on to charm people, and I have personally seen it in action. ENTPs are pretty charming upon meeting others. I didn't see evidence of this in Juno.



    Not everyone actually, even, Juno was perturbed that 'not everyone had that reaction' -> The underlined: actually, we see a Fe humour in her, when she first calls her best friend with the news of her pregnancy, she questions her friend's nonchalant response with the whole thing, until Juno finally convinces her friend that it's REAL, and her friend shows subsequent shocked reaction. Juno then comments, "NOW that's kinda the reaction I was looking for."
    Fuzzy territory again, but perhaps this is why Leah and Juno were best friends. Juno probably both expects people to overreact and is annoyed by it. Leah's lack of reaction is actually the perfect response. It is rewarding to convince someone of something that they were unresponsive toward before. Telling someone you're pregnant and having them immediately react strongly can be a bit alarming, especially for an introvert-perceiver who likes to know that they have some distance between themselves and the expectations of others. I guess this is just a funny thing about the way conversations between friends work, but I can see the same thing with myself and one of my best friends. His lack of reaction to the bizarre shit I say is exactly what makes me comfortable saying it with more conviction. This, often, can get a the desired effect and I feel more like a player in the discussion rather than someone who is just telling someone stuff they can react to (or hiding it, in the case of people who would disapprove or spread my secrets).

    * btw, yes, this thread prompted me to watch the movie again, just now.
    And I've stayed up nearly an hour and a half past my bedtime! I'm supposed to have a lucid dream tonight, dammit. Goodnight!

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