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  1. #61
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I think you're generalizing the characterization of what 'T' constitutes. Logical rationale happens irrespective of dominant trait expression -- emotion is a logical pattern of instinctive event spurred by a mechanical connection to environment.

    IIRC, Juno's rationale for not getting the abortion was likely an Fi event -- she was exceedingly uncomfortable in the clinic, and didn't want to go through with the procedure on this basis.

    While I agree that Fi was likely in charge of her reasoning here, I don't think it necessarily permeates her cognitive being, as one would otherwise expect of an ISFP. We don't see Juno displaying 'stereotypical' woe-is-me behavior, which could be argued as the sort of resilience one would normally find in an ExTP when dealing with an event as profound as teenage pregnancy. Her flippant treatment of Bleeker is also an ExTP trope, as is her intellectual infatuation with the hobbies of Mark.

    Admittedly, we're in kind of a weird, nebulous space, as we're dissecting cinematic characters that might not conform to the sort of behavior otherwise anticipated against type. At best, I'll concede that Juno could be an ExTP, versus ENTP...



    While I see what you're saying here (ISFP = interest in art), I think you do your reasoning a disservice here. I daresay we could argue just as easily that the 'Hamburger' phone is an example of Ne connection. Or, that her obsession with fake tobacco pipes / weird oversized sunglasses isn't also an example of Ne in motion.

    Not much can be concluded from her interests in art. Art is generally a conceptual entity culled from a realistic baseline. (Munch's 'The Scream' as an expression of hopelessness and depression he felt from personal alienation/his array of mental illnesses).

    As art flows 'twixt N and S realms, it's a tough nut to sell as evidence.



    I don't think offering personal behavior as evidence (to your bolded point) makes much sense. As a counterpoint, I could simply retort that I see much of myself in Juno, and she is therefore ENTP as a result...
    Exactly.

    Edit: And yes, improvisational is a word (a pretty common one, actually).
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #62
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    How can we talk about her room decor as an expression of type when a set designer created this for altogether different purposes than the screenwriter did in creating the character??

    Also, we may assume that Juno is likely based on the writer Diablo Cody, yes? If you type her, it will likely be the same as Juno. It's generally easier to create characters based on yourself.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  3. #63
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Improvisional? Is that even a word? And if I were to assume it was a word, that is not the least bit improvised. Improvisation, by definition, is done spontaneously, on the spot. This event clearly took an inordinate amount of planning, and that's actually where a lot of the humor in it comes from in my opinion. She set up furniture on someone's front lawn for god's sake!
    It took zero planning -- she did it on the fly.

    And I meant "improvisational."

    Improvisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Kind of an interesting entry.

  4. #64
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    This is very interesting that two types that should be theoretically poles apart (sharing no primary processes and only one preference) can still be confused for each other.

    I would say one thing though, that in general being unfazed by major things is unhealthy SPness, being too stuck in the moment to see any negative possibilities, whereas I would expect a Ne dominant to be very aware and concerned about possibilities.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  5. #65
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    As further evidence, because orangey thinks my argument has a dearth of it, I'd simply like to address E/I. Juno seems to have a very tight circle of friends. We see Bleeker and we see her best friend Leah. The high school at large is portrayed as a stream of faceless teens walking down a crowded hallway as Juno walks alone. The cinematography itself seems to have a kind of introversion to it. Compare it to a movie that seems to rush through a bunch of characters with smaller parts. Hell, compare it to the high school in Superbad. Juno struck me as, for the most part, quiet. Introverts can talk a lot too at times, especially around close relations, and there is plenty of that. Otherwise, though, Juno doesn't doesn't talk to anyone that we never see again. The movie doesn't have reason to show her being quiet.

  6. #66
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Exactly.

    Edit: And yes, improvisational is a word (a pretty common one, actually).
    It is a word, a word that was not said.

  7. #67
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    How can we talk about her room decor as an expression of type when a set designer created this for altogether different purposes than the screenwriter did in creating the character??

    Also, we may assume that Juno is likely based on the writer Diablo Cody, yes? If you type her, it will likely be the same as Juno. It's generally easier to create characters based on yourself.
    Okay, this is getting confusing. Are we talking about the fictional character as she was displayed in the movie, or are we talking about the conception of the character in the writer's mind, or what? I keep seeing this treated as though there is a Juno character outside of the movie...a real Juno, as it were. If we want to type the writer, that may give us a clue about how Juno was intended to be portrayed (if it is the case that the she meant to make Juno an image of herself). But I still think Juno's character in the movie should be analyzed on its own terms.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #68
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    It is a word, a word that was not said.
    Oh I see, lol. So my attempt to pick on you failed because you were actually picking on Tiltyred. Nice.
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  9. #69
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It took zero planning -- she did it on the fly.

    And I meant "improvisational."

    Improvisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Kind of an interesting entry.
    If she did that on the fly, everything is done on the fly. She got the idea when she saw the lawn chair at the yard sale, and it developed from there. She winds up with the thing and an elaborate display in front of Bleeker's front door, even with a pipe for added effect. Lugging a huge chair to someone's lawn and setting up a display is improvising how?

    Your wiki link even says it: improvisation is "in the moment and in response to the stimulus of one's immediate environment and inner feelings." The only thing spontaneous about this situation was the idea to do it itself. The rest was elaborately planned to have a highly striking visual, dramatic, and ironic effect.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    If she did that on the fly, everything is done on the fly. She got the idea when she saw the lawn chair at the yard sale, and it developed from there. She winds up with the thing and an elaborate display in front of Bleeker's front door, even with a pipe for added effect. Lugging a huge chair to someone's lawn and setting up a display is improvising how?

    Your wiki link even says it: improvisation is "in the moment and in response to the stimulus of one's immediate environment and inner feelings." The only thing spontaneous about this situation was the idea to do it itself. The rest was elaborately planned to have a highly striking visual, dramatic, and ironic effect.
    You know what? You're absolutely right.

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