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  1. #51
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    What decoration?? I missed all that entirely.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Juno is OBVIOUSLY an ISFP. Being a fictional character who actually did have a script to follow, however, may have made her seem a bit N. People usually aren't so spontaneously articulate. Her constant artistic decoration of her world, however, is clearly Fi-Se. Clearly.

    I guess I should also explain why she is not an ENTP. ENTPs are much more engaged with people they've just met. They like to talk to them and, yes, they say off the wall things, but they overall seem interested and engage the other person. Juno said off the wall things to people she just met, but she didn't really seem like she wanted to get to know them and lock them into conversation.

    -Oh, your name is Juno, like the city in Alaska!
    -No.


    End of conversation. I don't see an ENTP doing that.
    Welcome to the world of a teenage female ENTP. As I got older, my bubbliness finally caught on, and now, I will have at least 2-3 encounters a day with random strangers. Last one I saw today was talking about how he is proud of himself for kicking his cocaine addiction (2 years sober)...which led us to conversation about Afganistan and the poppy farming, etc, etc. We were waiting for a bus.

    In my teen years, ^ was NOT me. There was a more distinct sharpness/coldness/aloofness to me. Most humans bored me, actually. It's called, not yet discovering the full capacity of Fe. I was known as pretty darn anti-social as well.

    My first year dorm roomie & me, after I arrived 2 days late, in order to purposely avoid Frosh week (and, all its bullshit).

    My first day with the new roomie:

    Her (going a mile a minute): HI! So, since we're going to be bunking together for a WHOLE year, and you came late, you missed out on some of the activities we did. One we did for roommates to get to know each other better. *pulls out paper*
    See, we just ask each other these questions to get to know each other. Would you like to start?
    Me: No.
    *turn off light, go to sleep*
    Her: uhh...well, um...good night?

    ** she still reminds me of this story 7 years later, 'you were such a punk back then.'

  3. #53
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    What decoration?? I missed all that entirely.
    Uhhhh... you blind by any chance?


  4. #54
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    So your argument is basically the following:

    If you are an ENTP, then you are not ironic, and you are high energy.
    Juno is ironic and has low energy.
    Therefore Juno is not ENTP.

    If you are ISTP, then you are unemotional and not artistic.
    Juno is emotional and artistic.
    Therefore Juno is not ISTP.

    Then you randomly conclude from there that emotional + artistic (which for some reason are the only traits you feel are relevant to her personality) must mean that she's ISFP. You don't even consider other non-ENTP and non-ISTP types that might be emotional and artistic.

    I don't buy it. In the first place, I know two ENTPs and both of them are highly ironic and deadpan. The only difference between them and I (an INTP) is that they are more excitable. Juno was excitable. Remember how enthusiastic she got about the guitar? And the cheesy gore movies? If I were in a comparable situation, and I were a guitar/music/cheesy gore movie enthusiast, I would probably have kept the enthusiasm to myself. If I mentioned them at all.

    Further, I would take issue with your characterization of Juno as emotional. As emotional people go, I would rank her fairly low on the spectrum based on her behavior in the movie. And even if you disagree about her not being emotional, I would argue that it is a mistake to think that Ts are not emotional in the first place.

    Even further, being artistic (which she wasn't really ever creating art, it just looked like she had aesthetic appreciation of some things and so filled her environment with them) does not mean that you are an SF. Plenty of NTs, NFs, and even some SJs have artistic inclinations. I (like pretty much everyone else I know, to varying degrees) like to decorate my living environment with stuff that I think is pleasing to look at. That is hardly criteria to definitively call someone ISFP.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #55
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    So your argument is basically the following:

    If you are an ENTP, then you are not ironic, and you are high energy.
    Juno is ironic and has low energy.
    Therefore Juno is not ENTP.

    If you are ISTP, then you are unemotional and not artistic.
    Juno is emotional and artistic.
    Therefore Juno is not ISTP.

    Then you randomly conclude from there that emotional + artistic (which for some reason are the only traits you feel are relevant to her personality) must mean that she's ISFP. You don't even consider other non-ENTP and non-ISTP types that might be emotional and artistic.

    I don't buy it. In the first place, I know two ENTPs and both of them are highly ironic and deadpan. The only difference between them and I (an INTP) is that they are more excitable. Juno was excitable. Remember how enthusiastic she got about the guitar? And the cheesy gore movies? If I were in a comparable situation, and I were a guitar/music/cheesy gore movie enthusiast, I would probably have kept the enthusiasm to myself. If I mentioned them at all.

    Further, I would take issue with your characterization of Juno as emotional. As emotional people go, I would rank her fairly low on the spectrum based on her behavior in the movie. And even if you disagree about her not being emotional, I would argue that it is a mistake to think that Ts are not emotional in the first place.

    Even further, being artistic (which she wasn't really ever creating art, it just looked like she had aesthetic appreciation of some things and so filled her environment with them) does not mean that you are an SF. Plenty of NTs, NFs, and even some SJs have artistic inclinations.
    Juno had a sense of emotional maturity about her. "Emotional" doesn't necessarily equate to outward emotional displays, especially for Fi types. She didn't show her emotions childishly, but I still feel the decisions she made were emotionally based. An ISTP would have had the abortion, or if she hadn't, she would have come up with a logical explanation of why. Juno suddenly got a bad feeling about it, and ran out. She didn't set up an argument justifying herself like a T would be apt to do.

    Art seemed to be at the center of Juno's life. For other types, it is more of a side interest, but they are still quite often interested. The movie didn't show her creating much art (but it did show some, her playing the guitar, her lawn-setup and admiration of the armchair), but there was ample evidence of how her life seemed to revolve around artistic expression. This just wasn't needed for the plot.

    You've reduced my argument too much as well. You have personal experience, and so do I. Every type can have any quality. Of course just because someone likes art and makes emotion based decisions doesn't make them an ISFP. Any type can like art. Any type can like anything. We need to use generalities to narrow things down, though. This is a game of probability. Your arguments for her being an ENTP could be treated similarly.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Uhhhh... you blind by any chance?

    You didn't notice it's hideous? That is not artistic, my friend. That is someone clueless of art.

    The furniture bit was a joke.

  7. #57
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    You didn't notice it's hideous? That is not artistic, my friend. That is someone clueless of art.

    The furniture bit was a joke.
    You aren't just talking about the phone, are you? I found the decor, including the lawn setup, to be amazingly creative, something I could never have cooked up. The phone and the furniture on the lawn were all obviously slightly or more than slightly ironic, but that only adds to the creativity of it. "Hideous" it may be, but art doesn't need to not be hideous. In this case it is the expression of a quirky, random, creative personality, and would be impressed if I knew her in real life.

  8. #58
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    An ISTP would have had the abortion, or if she hadn't, she would have come up with a logical explanation of why. Juno suddenly got a bad feeling about it, and ran out. She didn't set up an argument justifying herself like a T would be apt to do.
    I think you're generalizing the characterization of what 'T' constitutes. Logical rationale happens irrespective of dominant trait expression -- emotion is a logical pattern of instinctive event spurred by a mechanical connection to environment.

    IIRC, Juno's rationale for not getting the abortion was likely an Fi event -- she was exceedingly uncomfortable in the clinic, and didn't want to go through with the procedure on this basis.

    While I agree that Fi was likely in charge of her reasoning here, I don't think it necessarily permeates her cognitive being, as one would otherwise expect of an ISFP. We don't see Juno displaying 'stereotypical' woe-is-me behavior, which could be argued as the sort of resilience one would normally find in an ExTP when dealing with an event as profound as teenage pregnancy. Her flippant treatment of Bleeker is also an ExTP trope, as is her intellectual infatuation with the Mark's hobbies.

    Admittedly, we're in kind of a weird, nebulous space, as we're dissecting cinematic characters that might not conform to the sort of behavior otherwise anticipated against type. At best, I'll concede that Juno could be an ExTP, versus ENTP...

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Art seemed to be at the center of Juno's life. For other types, it is more of a side interest, but they are still quite often interested. The movie didn't show her creating much art (but it did show some, her playing the guitar, her lawn-setup and admiration of the armchair), but there was ample evidence of how her life seemed to revolve around artistic expression. This just wasn't needed for the plot.
    While I see what you're saying here (ISFP = interest in art), I think you do your reasoning a disservice here. I daresay we could argue just as easily that the 'Hamburger' phone is an example of Ne connection. Or, that her obsession with fake tobacco pipes / weird oversized sunglasses isn't also an example of Ne in motion.

    Not much can be concluded from her interests in art. Art is generally a conceptual entity culled from a realistic baseline. (Munch's 'The Scream' as an expression of hopelessness and depression he felt from personal alienation/his array of mental illnesses).

    As art flows 'twixt N and S realms, it's a tough nut to sell as evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    You aren't just talking about the phone, are you? I found the decor, including the lawn setup, to be amazingly creative, something I could never have cooked up.
    I don't think offering personal behavior as evidence (to your bolded point) makes much sense. As a counterpoint, I could simply retort that I see much of myself in Juno, and she is therefore ENTP as a result...

  9. #59
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quirky, random, creative, yeah. I love her too.

    But I don't see any unifying vision there. I see a kind of geeky girl who collects a random assortment of "cool stuff." To me, that is not art. My cat does that.

    I could cook up the lawn set up in my sleep. But the way she used it was damn funny and very NT. Very improvisional.

  10. #60
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Quirky, random, creative, yeah. I love her too.

    But I don't see any unifying vision there. I see a kind of geeky girl who collects a random assortment of "cool stuff." To me, that is not art. My cat does that.

    I could cook up the lawn set up in my sleep. But the way she used it was damn funny and very NT. Very improvisional.
    Improvisional? Is that even a word? And if I were to assume it was a word, that is not the least bit improvised. Improvisation, by definition, is done spontaneously, on the spot. This event clearly took an inordinate amount of planning, and that's actually where a lot of the humor in it comes from in my opinion. She set up furniture on someone's front lawn for god's sake!

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