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Thread: Badass NFs

  1. #1
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Default Badass NFs

    Based on my badass SJs thread.

    This is a type group that actually does (unlike SJs) get a lot of love, but everyone thinks NF and thinks wuvvy fuzzy wuzzy. While this does apply to most NFs, please allow me to showcase the other side of NF-dom, those gritty, dark, emotionally charged characters who altogether totally

    kick

    fucking

    ass.

    Fictional:

    Dr. Gregory House (House, ENFP)
    Mihael Keehl, alias Mello (Death Note, ENFP)
    Touta Matsuda (Death Note, ENFP)
    Pip Bernadotte (Hellsing, ENFP)
    Suzaku Kururugi (Code Geass, INFJ)
    Darcia (Wolf's Rain, INFP)
    Erik (Phantom of the Opera, INFP)
    Davey Jones (Pirates of the Caribbean, INFP)
    Calypso (Pirates of the Caribbean, ENFP)
    Drusilla (BTVS, ENFP)
    Kyon (The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, INFP)
    Itsuki Koizumi (The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, INFJ)
    Yoda (Star Wars, INFJ)
    Qui-Gon Jinn (Star Wars, ENFJ)
    Obi-Wan Kenobi (Star Wars, INFJ)
    Padmé Amidala (Star Wars, INFJ)
    Luke Skywalker (Star Wars, ENFJ)
    Eli Loker (Lie to Me, ENFP)
    Second Doctor (Doctor Who, ENFP)
    Fourth Doctor (Doctor Who, ENFP)
    Fifth Doctor (Doctor Who, INFP)
    Eighth Doctor (Doctor Who, ENFJ)
    Ninth Doctor (Doctor Who, ENFP)
    Tenth Doctor (Doctor Who, ENFP)
    Sara Jane Smith (Doctor Who, ENFP)
    Romana II (Doctor Who, ENFP)
    Martha Jones (Doctor Who, INFJ)


    Non-Fictional:

    Baron Freiherr Roman Nikolai Maximillian Ungern von Sternberg (ENFP)
    Donatien Alphonse Francois, Marquis de Sade (ENFP)
    Ivan the Terrible (INFP)
    Leon Trotsky (ENFJ)
    Pol Pot (INFJ)
    Charles Manson (ENFJ)
    Jim Jones (ENFJ)
    David Koresh (ENFJ)
    Don Pedro Albizu Campos (ENFJ)
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  2. #2
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Tia Dalma rules!
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  3. #3
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Default

    Well, I'm not going to argue these specifically here, but I will mention that I think neither House nor Mello are NFs.
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  4. #4
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Oh yes they are. House is not, indeed, logical at all -- he just sounds logical, because he's an Enneagram 5. Everything he does, everything he says, everything he analyzes, is based on an axiomatic preconceived framework that he refuses to let go of even when present circumstances render it effectively illogical. The show basically revolves around House's stubborn beliefs and everyone trying to prove them wrong.

    Mello has been argued exhaustively in the Death Note thread, but the fact is that everything about him is emotionally motivated. His one and only goal in life, indeed, is to one-up Near, against whom he has a serious inferiority complex. He actually ran away from Wammy's house at 16 (a life-altering decision) because of a temper tantrum based precisely on him being creeped out by Near's apparent lack of emotion.
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  5. #5
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Well, I said I wasn't going to argue...oh well, I lied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Oh yes they are. House is not, indeed, logical at all -- he just sounds logical, because he's an Enneagram 5. Everything he does, everything he says, everything he analyzes, is based on an axiomatic preconceived framework that he refuses to let go of even when present circumstances render it effectively illogical. The show basically revolves around House's stubborn beliefs and everyone trying to prove them wrong.
    The bolded just sounds like Ti unaccompanied by a decently strong sensing function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Mello has been argued exhaustively in the Death Note thread, but the fact is that everything about him is emotionally motivated. His one and only goal in life, indeed, is to one-up Near, against whom he has a serious inferiority complex. He actually ran away from Wammy's house at 16 (a life-altering decision) because of a temper tantrum based precisely on him being creeped out by Near's apparent lack of emotion.
    I've read the Death Note thread, and all I see is a general confusion between emotion and impulse. It's understandable I guess, seeing as how the show identifies Mello's impulsiveness explicitly as "emotion." If you look, however, the actions that they're calling emotional are pure impulse; the "emotional" things that he does seem like Se.

    Looking at Mello's overall presentation, however, I see ESTP. He's a mildly sadistic character (it doesn't seem as though he has a very strong sense of ethics) that solves problems by being unpredictable and making a splash. Where L or Near would go about things in a relatively low-key, mind-gamish manner (when they could help it), Mello would show up, blow things up, take hostages, and kill people (or threaten to kill people) with little regard for the consequences.

    I could even see ESFP, but I lean T.
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  6. #6
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    The bolded just sounds like Ti unaccompanied by a decently strong sensing function.
    I could say this is completely retarded off the bat, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. How so?
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  7. #7
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I could say this is completely retarded off the bat, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. How so?
    You can say whatever the hell you want. It's not like it would make a difference to me or anyone else reading this exchange.

    Getting back to the point, here are some quotes from Jung regarding the introverted thinking type that speak to the issue:

    With him, everything tends to disappear and get concealed. His judgment appears cold, obstinate, arbitrary, and inconsiderate, simply because he is related less to the object than the subject. One can feel nothing in it that might possibly confer a higher value upon the object; it always seems to go beyond the object, leaving behind it a flavour of a certain subjective superiority.
    If to his eyes his product appears subjectively correct and true, it must also be so in practice, and others have simply got to bow to its truth. Hardly ever will he go out of his way to win anyone’s appreciation of it, especially if it be anyone of influence. And, when he brings himself to do so, he is usually so extremely maladroit that he merely achieves the opposite of his purpose. In his own special province, there are usually awkward experiences with his colleagues, since he never knows how to win their favour; as a rule he only succeeds in showing them how entirely superfluous they are to him. In the pursuit of his ideas he is generally stubborn, head-strong, and quite unamenable to influence.
    Basically, a Ti user employs a subjective framework that, without a balancing extraverted function, is not amenable to the influence of external factors.
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  8. #8
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I've read the Death Note thread, and all I see is a general confusion between emotion and impulse. It's understandable I guess, seeing as how the show identifies Mello's impulsiveness explicitly as "emotion." If you look, however, the actions that they're calling emotional are pure impulse; the "emotional" things that he does seem like Se.
    Se cannot be emotional, because it doesn't think. it's a Perceiving, rather than a Judging function, which means it's an input process. It absorbs information. Emotionality is the result of an F judging process, which can either be Fe, or Fi. In Mello's case, it is Fi.

    Looking at Mello's overall presentation, however, I see ESTP. He's a mildly sadistic character (it doesn't seem as though he has a very strong sense of ethics) that solves problems by being unpredictable and making a splash. Where L or Near would go about things in a relatively low-key, mind-gamish manner (when they could help it), Mello would show up, blow things up, take hostages, and kill people (or threaten to kill people) with little regard for the consequences.
    I assume you've only watched the anime. The Anime presents Mello as an unintuitive action figure (who could easily be mistaken for ESFP), but the Manga, which presents much more of his thought process, it is possible to see Mello sift through multiple random possibilities about how events could develop to arrive at conclusions. He is quite impulsive (he is a P, after all), but he's Ne-dominant, rather than Se-dominant.

    As for ethics, bear in mind that Fi is not about societal ethics at all. it's about personal, deeply held values, that guide your thoughts and actions. Mello had these very much -- mostly fucked-up values revolving around a winning-at-all-costs attitude.

    With him, everything tends to disappear and get concealed. His judgment appears cold, obstinate, arbitrary, and inconsiderate, simply because he is related less to the object than the subject. One can feel nothing in it that might possibly confer a higher value upon the object; it always seems to go beyond the object, leaving behind it a flavour of a certain subjective superiority.

    [...]

    If to his eyes his product appears subjectively correct and true, it must also be so in practice, and others have simply got to bow to its truth. Hardly ever will he go out of his way to win anyone’s appreciation of it, especially if it be anyone of influence. And, when he brings himself to do so, he is usually so extremely maladroit that he merely achieves the opposite of his purpose. In his own special province, there are usually awkward experiences with his colleagues, since he never knows how to win their favour; as a rule he only succeeds in showing them how entirely superfluous they are to him. In the pursuit of his ideas he is generally stubborn, head-strong, and quite unamenable to influence.
    Not the point. I was asking how what I construed as Fi could possibly be considered Sensing instead. As I mentioned, Sensing is a Perception mode, so it does not emit values.
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  9. #9
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Se cannot be emotional, because it doesn't think. it's a Perceiving, rather than a Judging function, which means it's an input process. It absorbs information. Emotionality is the result of an F judging process, which can either be Fe, or Fi. In Mello's case, it is Fi.
    I didn't say that Se was emotional . I said that what the show was calling emotion was actually impulse, which is Se.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I assume you've only watched the anime. The Anime presents Mello as an unintuitive action figure (who could easily be mistaken for ESFP), but the Manga, which presents much more of his thought process, it is possible to see Mello sift through multiple random possibilities about how events could develop to arrive at conclusions. He is quite impulsive (he is a P, after all), but he's Ne-dominant, rather than Se-dominant.
    Well, I can't really say anything to this since I haven't read the Manga. I won't take your word for it, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    As for ethics, bear in mind that Fi is not about societal ethics at all. it's about personal, deeply held values, that guide your thoughts and actions. Mello had these very much -- mostly fucked-up values revolving around a winning-at-all-costs attitude.
    It seems to me that this could be used as a catch-all to explain ANY character's actions. For example, if a character consistently organized their surroundings (a typically Te trait), it could be rationalized that it's Fi motivated because he/she really valued organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Not the point. I was asking how what I construed as Fi could possibly be considered Sensing instead. As I mentioned, Sensing is a Perception mode, so it does not emit values.
    What in god's name are you talking about? That post was in response to what you said about House.

    You said, "Everything he does, everything he says, everything he analyzes, is based on an axiomatic preconceived framework that he refuses to let go of even when present circumstances render it effectively illogical."

    Then I said that this sounds like Ti.

    Then you said it was retarded and asked me why I thought so.

    I then responded by giving you quotes from Jung.
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  10. #10
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I didn't say that Se was emotional . I said that what the show was calling emotion was actually impulse, which is Se.
    Except that he shows obvious emotion -- not just impulse (though he most certainly is impulsive). I mean seriously, running out of Wammy's house because Near is a robot? C'mon.

    Well, I can't really say anything to this since I haven't read the Manga. I won't take your word for it, though.
    Near and Mello appear around chapter 65 or so. Have fun.

    What in god's name are you talking about? That post was in response to what you said about House.

    You said, "Everything he does, everything he says, everything he analyzes, is based on an axiomatic preconceived framework that he refuses to let go of even when present circumstances render it effectively illogical."

    Then I said that this sounds like Ti.

    Then you said it was retarded and asked me why I thought so.

    I then responded by giving you quotes from Jung.
    Erm, oops. I thought you'd said that it was accompanied rather than unaccompanied by a strong Sensing function -- as in you were arguing he acted that way because he was S rather than F. My apologies.

    I don't think that's right though. Most ENTPs are S-deficient and somewhat attached to their ideas, but their logical frameworks are just that -- logical. He just seems to feel that seeing selfishness, dishonesty and cynicism in every human being on the face of this planet is extremely, without any logical reasoning whatsoever as to why that must be so. It just is.
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