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Thread: Badass NFs

  1. #21
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    ^ENFP?

  2. #22
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Luke is an INFP or ISFP. You usually subscribe to this idea that Fi is pissed off individualism. Please stop. Ivan the Terrible, Phantom of the Opera, and Davey Jones are INFPs? Seriously? What the hell do any of them have to do with trying to follow a value system defined by universal goods and evils or idealism?
    Fi is internal ethical values. Nothing more, and nothing less. This ethical value system could be defined by universal good and evil and idealism, but it doesn't have to be (ethical nihilism, in fact, could itself be a value), and it is most certainly not part of any definition of Fi. Fi values could in fact be quite literally anything, so long as it is derived from your own sense of what is right (or what is good for you), as opposed to logic or what other people value.

    It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.
    Can you find where in here the words good, evil or idealism are used? All I see is values.

    I argue the pissed-off individualism angle as a reaction to the widespread idea that Fi can only ever be this benevolent fluffy bunny thing, and because I personally identify far better with the darker aspects of Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    how about Phoebe from Charmed?
    Yep, ENFP.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    I can also see a good argument for INFP (FiNe). I guess either way you slice it, it is still Ne and Fi together.
    I'm pretty sure Vash is E. Specially in his silly switch and willingness to engage and be theatrical. But yeah, for sure one of the most solid examples of Ne and Fi.

  4. #24
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Fi is internal ethical values. Nothing more, and nothing less.
    Yes, it is more (it's not just about ethics either. I would make aesthetic Fi choices as well). Ne tries to view things in a holistic fashion, views context, big picture, future implications, to the point that this manner of inclusive thinking would color someone's conscience into forming ideals that bridge more gaps than mere self absorption. Not that they'd be perfect or anything, but "Ivan the Terrible" is a stretch. That guy would cook people on human sized skillets for petty crimes; he tortured animals as a kid; killed his own son because Ivan was beating his son's wife and his son tried to protect her; and slaughtered entire towns just out of paranoia. That's not even "dark ethics", man. He was just savage and emotional, drama-prone, and out of touch with any sense of foresight or thoughtfulness in his decisions (he'd regret some of this stuff later too.. which shows he had no principles or sense of character he aspired to beforehand. He was just following random impulses).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Can you find where in here the words good, evil or idealism are used? All I see is values.
    I can find descriptions where they in fact are labeled that way. I explained above that perceptions make a difference though. For one example:

    INFPs live primarily in a rich inner world of introverted Feeling. Being inward-turning, the natural attraction is away from world and toward essence and ideal. This introversion of dominant Feeling, receiving its data from extraverted intuition, must be the source of the quixotic nature of these usually gentle beings. Feeling is caught in the approach- avoidance bind between concern both for people and for All Creatures Great and Small, and a psycho-magnetic repulsion from the same. The "object," be it homo sapiens or a mere representation of an organism, is valued only to the degree that the object contains some measure of the inner Essence or greater Good. Doing a good deed, for example, may provide intrinsic satisfaction which is only secondary to the greater good of striking a blow against Man's Inhumanity to Mankind.


    Anyways, I just want to show you another list of definitions, in terms of where Fi is placed (from the greenlightwiki). The fact that you typed as ESTp (who have Fi-PoLR in socionics) and sometimes ENTP and talk the way you do tells me you don't what to make of Fi like an ENFP does. Like thinking Ivan the Terrible is Fi.. if you identify with your Fi to "locate" it in a figure like that, you are far from Dom or Aux probably. That, or you're just not doing well.. So I WILL be a bunny rabbit, I think, and give you a hug. (P.S. Apologies for the long post)

    As a Dominant Function, Fi leads IFPs to live a life based on empathy and harmony between self and others--and/or to see life as a never-ending conflict between souls that are intrinsically different and opposed. ISFPs typically seek out a space in which they can be completely and spontaneously themselves, following their artistic impulses without regard to social expectation or definition of any sort. Some do their best to live life as a soap opera: creating and living out intense drama wherever they go. INFPs typically seek to understand the world in terms of drama, emotion, and people seeking their own unique callings (perhaps Garrison Keillor is a good example of that). Some, like John Gray, attempt to help others understand each other through empathy with each other's differences, and thereby find peace and synergy.

    Developed Fi naturally leads people to favor mercy or forgiveness for people who have done heinous acts--anything from theft to murder to genocide--acts that, under the ordinary laws that make a society manageable (see Extraverted Thinking), would usually merit their imprisonment or execution. From a developed Fi perspective, the criminal is still a living soul, still unique and precious despite whatever he may have done. If we walked in his moccasins for a while, maybe we could see it his way. Without condoning his crimes, maybe we could see how we ourselves could have done the same things under similar circumstances. This use of empathy as one's ultimate anchor of orientation leads to a resolute non-judgementalness. First empathize--find something in your own heart that lets you see how someone could feel and act the way he did--and then you will probably find that you no longer feel hatred or a desire for retribution.

    As a Secondary Function, Fi typically leads EFPs to tune into the unmet needs and callings of others--as an avenue to making a sale, as a way to intuit what would entertain people, as a channel to political gain by demonstrating that you understand people's pain (e.g. Bill Clinton), as a way to chart a course through life based on a calling felt to be unique to them. Sometimes it leads them to sense a higher calling to answer to, a sense that their actions have cosmic meaning by virtue of how they aid or hinder life.

    As a Tertiary Function, Fi typically leads ITJs to retreat into solitary actions that have no constructive worldly effect but are aimed at providing a justification for calling themselves good people. Another example is obsession with the purity of one's soul. For example, being a vegetarian while working at Taco Bell--not out of any great love for animals (the person might hardly know anything about what cows are like), but to be able to say, "Well, at least I never ate any animals." Or engaging in pointless acts of honor, like maintaining super-self-control or "doing one's duty" or going down with the ship. Nothing is gained by going down with the ship; it's a hyper-introverted act aimed at providing a rationalization for one's goodness without regard to real-world consequences. Nearly all of these tertiary-Fi acts involve refraining from action viewed as unethical rather than taking positive action that would accomplish something. They're a retreat from the world--or rather, a rationalization for disregarding worldly matters.

    As an Inferior Function, Fi typically leads ETJs to acts of self-destructive hedonism, creation of opera-like drama in their lives and the lives of those around them, obsession with "integrity" (like going down with the ship), instant and irresponsible abandonment of anything they don't like (the opposite of going down with the ship), and bizarre solitary acts of atonement for the harms they've done to others. Sometimes inferior-Fi leads ETJs to preach and even practice a sort of hyper-selfishness, e.g. Ayn Rand and the Landmark Forum. "I'm doing fine, so why should I give a damn about you?" (Very different from highly developed Fi, which leads you to see all people as connected and the highest joy of life as the experience of that connection.)

    Tertiary and inferior Fi also sometimes lead TJs to view large numbers of people as "troglodytes": soulless or stupid creatures whose rotten situations in life derive only from their own intrinsic rottenness-of-soul. To take a comic example, Lex Luthor's lamentation in Superman, "Why is the world's greatest criminal genius surrounded by nincompoops?"

  5. #25
    Senior Member InTheFlesh's Avatar
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    David Gilmour, the guitar player from Pink Floyd, is an INFJ. Contrary to the sound of the music, some of his writing is pretty dark.

  6. #26
    Senior Member HotpinkHeatwave's Avatar
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    You forgot me. I belong on that list.

  7. #27
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Yes, it is more (it's not just about ethics either. I would make aesthetic Fi choices as well). Ne tries to view things in a holistic fashion, views context, big picture, future implications, to the point that this manner of inclusive thinking would color someone's conscience into forming ideals that bridge more gaps than mere self absorption. Not that they'd be perfect or anything, but "Ivan the Terrible" is a stretch. That guy would cook people on human sized skillets for petty crimes; he tortured animals as a kid; killed his own son because Ivan was beating his son's wife and his son tried to protect her; and slaughtered entire towns just out of paranoia. That's not even "dark ethics", man. He was just savage and emotional, drama-prone, and out of touch with any sense of foresight or thoughtfulness in his decisions (he'd regret some of this stuff later too.. which shows he had no principles or sense of character he aspired to beforehand. He was just following random impulses).
    That IS Fi, focusing on his own internal feelings. He was just a deeply mentally disturbed individual, especially after his wife died which drove him off the deep end. Also, some of these claims are actually incorrect sensationalism, rooted in Western film portrayals of the man, the most popular one of which is as accurate as John Wayne's portrayal of Genghis Khan.

    Fi users are, granted, usually much, MUCH nicer than that. There still isn't any function his deep concern for his own personal ethical values (as opposed to your ethical values) and his own personal emotions fits but Fi.

    Ironically he was also probably more morally rigid than you are -- he was a devout member of the Russian Orthodox Church.

    Anyways, I just want to show you another list of definitions, in terms of where Fi is placed (from the greenlightwiki). The fact that you typed as ESTp (who have Fi-PoLR in socionics) and sometimes ENTP and talk the way you do tells me you don't what to make of Fi like an ENFP does. Like thinking Ivan the Terrible is Fi.. if you identify with your Fi to "locate" it in a figure like that, you are far from Dom or Aux probably. That, or you're just not doing well.. So I WILL be a bunny rabbit, I think, and give you a hug. (P.S. Apologies for the long post)
    One doesn't have to personally identify with a given function in order to identify what said function is -- I realize that Fi doesn't have to be angry or mean, but there's nothing about a focus on internal values that would exclude said values from being fucked-up. And yes, I am myself a somewhat fucked-up individual.

    And, being Fi-PoLR in Socionics is beside the point, because Socionics interprets Fi and Fe differently from how MBTI does. I am, without a shadow of a doubt, a Ti and Fe valuer in Socionics. But I'm more Fi/Te by MBTI interpretations.

    I've read that article, incidentally. I've always thought Lenore Thomson's view of Fi and Fe was way too cheery.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
    Sage, True Neutral (Chaotic Good), Type III Anti-Hero
    Inventive > Artistic > Leisurely > Dramatic
    7w6 > 4w3 > 9w8, weakside sp/so

    Dark Worker (Sacrificing)
    Freewheeling Designer

    Hayekian Asshole


  8. #28
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    That IS Fi, focusing on his own internal feelings.
    No. It is no different than Ti (In the sense that Fe is categorical in a comparable way to Te, Ti and Fi can be compared as well.. Fi isn't in it's own little world way off to the side like some bastard child function, drowning in a tidal wave of random feelings, with no categorical nature like the others.). It's just a different paradigm than Ti. Instead of hard logic and systematic approaches, it's aesthetic, values, sentiments, and self-identification with various concepts and ideas.. all to create a style of sorts. A system or sense of expression in a way, but very hard to speak about in detail. But not so vulgar as simply emotions.

    Consider this: Do you actually think so many Fi artists and poets and writers and actors and athletes (or whatever) could all do what they do merely with their emotions? When I play a guitar, I am definitely not playing with feeling or emotions in the way you think of Fi. Nor am I taking a Ti theoretical approach either. And, I'm not going strictly on perception (only half of it is that). I might stumble upon a chord arrangement or a set of riffs and patterns that resonate on a very subtle feeling level, and from there, I latch on to it because it points to some aesthetic ideal that I kind of was questing for..it's "just right for me" according to everything I am and all of my tastes up to that point (maybe it's not that wide reaching, but I hope you get the point). The same goes for ethical choices in a way. When I make little "feeling"/value choices in life, it's because they were pointing to a larger idea or archetype or a model that I already aspired to. I want to imitate them in a way.. they are point of resonance and inspiration. It is not choosing things based on emotion (past or present) necessarily.

    You can try to reinvent the wheel on Fi if you want, but it's not going to help you in the end. Read any description of it.. or go buy Thomson's book (even though you think you know better). She'll even talk about how Fi arranges a bookcase or makes spaghetti. It can be in the realm of the ideal and this mundane stuff. It lines up with what I'm saying. Hell, when I'm shopping, I even buy deodorant based on my Fi values. I swear I do. And deodorant brands have nothing to do with my emotions. I'm just searching for what gets close to the Platonic ideal of deodorant

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