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Thread: Joan of Arc

  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbows View Post
    Ehm. He already did explain. Is it so bad the Joan was an S not an N?
    What does "bad" have to do with it? What relevance is it how people feel about someone being N or S?

    Type bias in either direction doesn't really have a place in any analysis. If she's S, she's S; and if she's N, she's N.

    I could do more extensive research, I suppose, except that the issue is not important enough to me to invest the time right now. Another problem is that there have been enough docu-dramas, movies, whatever else, rather than pure historical record, so without more research I cannot say for sure which presentation of Joan I'm responding to.

    But in the past, my impression was that her major qualities seemed to me to align with INFJ style behavior: Internal vision of what's "true" even when she faced severe opposition in the external world (to the point of death), an external Judging function, and her focus was long typical Idealist lines. She didn't uphold status quo, she just did what was right. There's an unwavering fierceness to it that is typical of IxFJs.

    SP behavior is more concerned about freedom and flexibility, although they can also be moralistic. But we're really taking about the "grounding reality" here, and Joan's inherent world view was a moralistic one built on a spiritual connection with the Divine that she saw as inherently true -- this is typical of Ni just "seeing the dots connected" without having to process anything even if no one else does. It wouldn't surprise me if she could argue with church leaders and point out flaws in church theology and practice, either; look at some of the more involved INFJ's here and see how functional their Ti is, in service of their values. Ti is the "hole finder" in the underlying structure of things.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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    I love the I am Evil Peguy Homer Simpson.

  3. #23
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    What does "bad" have to do with it? What relevance is it how people feel about someone being N or S?

    Type bias in either direction doesn't really have a place in any analysis. If she's S, she's S; and if she's N, she's N.

    I could do more extensive research, I suppose, except that the issue is not important enough to me to invest the time right now. Another problem is that there have been enough docu-dramas, movies, whatever else, rather than pure historical record, so without more research I cannot say for sure which presentation of Joan I'm responding to.

    But in the past, my impression was that her major qualities seemed to me to align with INFJ style behavior: Internal vision of what's "true" even when she faced severe opposition in the external world (to the point of death), an external Judging function, and her focus was long typical Idealist lines. She didn't uphold status quo, she just did what was right. There's an unwavering fierceness to it that is typical of IxFJs.

    SP behavior is more concerned about freedom and flexibility, although they can also be moralistic. But we're really taking about the "grounding reality" here, and Joan's inherent world view was a moralistic one built on a spiritual connection with the Divine that she saw as inherently true -- this is typical of Ni just "seeing the dots connected" without having to process anything even if no one else does. It wouldn't surprise me if she could argue with church leaders and point out flaws in church theology and practice, either; look at some of the more involved INFJ's here and see how functional their Ti is, in service of their values. Ti is the "hole finder" in the underlying structure of things.
    I'd point out that concerns with spiritual truth aren't anyone's domain - in every (even dramatic) sense of the word spiritual. Just a random, top Google search would touch on ISFP spirituality), and even go so far as to say we're the most spiritual.. which I don't believe myself.. I find it just as strange, but it serves my purposes here to provide an equal alternative). I would rather quote books than websites when it comes all of this, but I don't want clog this up too much. Needless to say, I've never seen INFJ described as having an impulsive/militant or necessarily more fierce sort of F impetus that seemed to drive her types of actions at least. I could see INFP in a way for being Fi (kind of rethought that), but not really INFJ. INFJs are said to percieve things from many perspectives and conceptual viewpoints, and arrange their actions and words accordingly. It's not supposed to be militant idealism, but transcendant. And in many cases, it's just as down to earth..

    Keirsey wants to categorize things in grand words like "idealists" for NFs, but it just muddies the issues (either consciously or subconsciously), creates a false dichotomy, and negates any sense of concern in other types (just like NFs can be artists too!)..some of us sit back around here though and notice how we're apparently just supposed to accept our "roles" as if we're a part of a world that's merely self-involved, personal, and can't discuss deep issues.. or whatever. And some NFs here don't realize they're pushing away the very people they could have a decent conversation with when they speak like that or gloss over our posts..and all it begins because of Keirsey, I think (and sorry for the soapboxing.. I figured this thread was as good as any :P).

    Where was I? Oh. INFJs could be very well involve themselves in the realm of simpler matters too. A newspaper editor, for example, could be INFJ, who has the final say on how articles are worded, so as not to offend or to better drive home a message to a broad range of groups. That person's idealism is still admirable, and people like that, or a politician or philosopher, who can synthesize their approach that way, could elevate and reform society to better norms over time, but it's all very down to earth too. How they came about to be these better versions of IFPs who wash the dishes more and read minds to boot is a bit much though. From what I've read, they have more in common with INTJ.. just in the realm of the social/personal. Personally, I think if anything, she had somewhat contemporary INFJs to compare with in the forms of Eckhart or Erasmus.

  4. #24
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    i think ISFP and INFJ are equally valid for joan of arc. she could easily be the patron saint for either of these two. from my experiences with INFP's, they are as kdude said earlier:
    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    She can't be S? Honestly, I'd like to see an INFP start a war. Or swing their fists. And win. They are far more into just imagining a better world and counseling others to see some part of an ideal (and that's cool too). Not forcing one though.
    this is strictly from personal experience, but i know i was always a bit more forceful with the things i believed in than a particular INFP counterpart that i knew of. and it was always a bit of the same with a particular INFJ that i knew of.

    ISFP: Se/Fi + Ni
    INFJ: Fe/Ni + Ti
    INFP: Ne/Fi + Si

    but i think any of us three types could easily turn into a modern day joan of arc depending on how fired up on an issue we are, big or small.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #25
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Another problem is that there have been enough docu-dramas, movies, whatever else, rather than pure historical record, so without more research I cannot say for sure which presentation of Joan I'm responding to.
    Very true.
    For reliable information, I think Régine Pernoud's work would be the most accurate and objective: she quotes directly and abundantly from historical manuscripts such as the Condemnation and Rehabilitation Trials and has devoted her intellectual life to Joan of Arc and other medieval subjects.

    The worst depiction I have seen so far is Luc Besson's The Messenger even though if offers beautiful images.

  6. #26
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Heh.. I agree, it's not accurate. The Messenger is still redeemable to me though because it kind of takes a note from the Last Temptation of Christ.. in that it just throws the question out there on whether she was truly in touch with God or not. I thought Dustin Hoffman's role was chilling. I'm not sacrilegious, but I appreciate the Last Temptation for the same kind of angle, where it provoked thought about Christ's humanity. Ironically, pointing out some of the struggle and possible lunacy of people like them just makes me appreciate them more.. It's so easy to focus on the invincible, mythological images of saints and heroes, but when a story makes you take a step back and just question: Wait, they were real people that did something like this..?? That's where you realize just how courageous they were (of course, we can do this on our own too ).


    On another note, I don't take offense at the ISFP=Illiterate comment earlier btw. I only have an 8th grade (middle school) education. And to be honest, I am somewhat of a peasant myself. Yet, I'm OK talking to people about a variety of things at this site. Tried at least. I'd say her insight need not be ascribed to Ni necessarily. The real point though is consider any of us SP's a case in point on people who can converse with others, despite some stereotypes in our interests or education level. All you have to do is reach out to them. At the very least, don't be this guy, whom, out of all the cool people, associates ISFP with Nero. St. Jeanne may not be ISFP, but I've come to the conclusion that if the divide is that bad for those sort of perceptions, I'm out. Typology is useless then. Time to burn myself at the stake

  7. #27
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'd point out that concerns with spiritual truth aren't anyone's domain - in every (even dramatic) sense of the word spiritual. Just a random, top Google search would touch on ISFP spirituality), and even go so far as to say we're the most spiritual.. which I don't believe myself.. I find it just as strange, but it serves my purposes here to provide an equal alternative).'
    Yes but don't INFJ's tend to be most spiritual? Isn't this tendency due to their Dom Ni, their less grasp of reality(Inf Se), Fe(value-based) auxiliary, and subjective logic(Ti)?

    I've never seen INFJ described as having an impulsive/militant or necessarily more fierce sort of F impetus that seemed to drive her types of actions at least.
    Logical Fallacy: Historian's Fallacy.
    I could see INFP in a way for being Fi (kind of rethought that), but not really INFJ.
    Sorry? Fi is an Introverted function and Fe is an extroverted function. One prefers to deal with internal struggles, the other external.

    INFJs are said to percieve things from many perspectives and conceptual viewpoints, and arrange their actions and words accordingly. It's not supposed to be militant idealism, but transcendant. And in many cases, it's just as down to earth..
    Transcendence is the cause of their "militant idealism". Although they may word it differently away from "militant". Dominant Ni allows all possible "brutish", viewpoints.

    No no no, definitely not "down to earth".

    Keirsey wants to categorize things in grand words like "idealists" for NFs, but it just muddies the issues (either consciously or subconsciously), creates a false dichotomy, and negates any sense of concern in other types (just like NFs can be artists too!)..some of us sit back around here though and notice how we're apparently just supposed to accept our "roles" as if we're a part of a world that's merely self-involved, personal, and can't discuss deep issues.. or whatever. And some NFs here don't realize they're pushing away the very people they could have a decent conversation with when they speak like that or gloss over our posts..and all it begins because of Keirsey, I think (and sorry for the soapboxing.. I figured this thread was as good as any :P).
    yeah Soapboxing Fallacy: Red Herring.

    Where was I? Oh. INFJs could be very well involve themselves in the realm of simpler matters too. A newspaper editor, for example, could be INFJ, who has the final say on how articles are worded, so as not to offend or to better drive home a message to a broad range of groups. That person's idealism is still admirable, and people like that, or a politician or philosopher, who can synthesize their approach that way, could elevate and reform society to better norms over time, but it's all very down to earth too. How they came about to be these better versions of IFPs who wash the dishes more and read minds to boot is a bit much though. From what I've read, they have more in common with INTJ.. just in the realm of the social/personal. Personally, I think if anything, she had somewhat contemporary INFJs to compare with in the forms of Eckhart or Erasmus.


    One with an " NF" will indirectly mean idealistic. Thus, INFJ being the more plausible typing.

    An ISFP may be more idealistic than INFP but by probability, NF>SF in idealism.
    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    i think ISFP and INFJ are equally valid for joan of arc. she could easily be the patron saint for either of these two. from my experiences with INFP's, they are as kdude said earlier:

    this is strictly from personal experience, but i know i was always a bit more forceful with the things i believed in than a particular INFP counterpart that i knew of. and it was always a bit of the same with a particular INFJ that i knew of.

    ISFP: Se/Fi + Ni
    INFJ: Fe/Ni + Ti
    INFP: Ne/Fi + Si

    but i think any of us three types could easily turn into a modern day joan of arc depending on how fired up on an issue we are, big or small.
    *COULD* implies a possibility but which is the most rational possible typing for such a character? Certainly one with a strong view and a strong sense of justice, no? What separates INFJ's from IFP's is that they(generally) move more and whine less.


    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Heh.. I agree, it's not accurate. The Messenger is still redeemable to me though because it kind of takes a note from the Last Temptation of Christ.. in that it just throws the question out there on whether she was truly in touch with God or not. I thought Dustin Hoffman's role was chilling. I'm not sacrilegious, but I appreciate the Last Temptation for the same kind of angle, where it provoked thought about Christ's humanity. Ironically, pointing out some of the struggle and possible lunacy of people like them just makes me appreciate them more.. It's so easy to focus on the invincible, mythological images of saints and heroes, but when a story makes you take a step back and just question: Wait, they were real people that did something like this..?? That's where you realize just how courageous they were (of course, we can do this on our own too ).


    On another note, I don't take offense at the ISFP=Illiterate comment earlier btw. I only have an 8th grade (middle school) education. And to be honest, I am somewhat of a peasant myself. Yet, I'm OK talking to people about a variety of things at this site. Tried at least. I'd say her insight need not be ascribed to Ni necessarily. The real point though is consider any of us SP's a case in point on people who can converse with others, despite some stereotypes in our interests or education level. All you have to do is reach out to them. At the very least, don't be this guy, whom, out of all the cool people, associates ISFP with Nero. St. Jeanne may not be ISFP, but I've come to the conclusion that if the divide is that bad for those sort of perceptions, I'm out. Typology is useless then. Time to burn myself at the stake
    There are many types of intelligence. Define which. Type factors in type of intelligence but does not determine it.

  8. #28
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    That was quite a lot to reply to. You have my head in a twist with the red herrings and such. Honestly. Even if I attempted to speak your language, I probably wouldn't do a good job of it anyways...I'll think on what you said though, hope that's good enough.

    Anyways, I took a week or so off and have come to the conclusion that I really do not know what to be sure of, because I may very well be INFP myself As I've stated earlier though, many books would have ISFP and INFP more alike than not (the basic idea being that types with the same Dominant function are grouped together). Like in Thomson, Quenk, some manuals I've seen, etc.. Here's another description I ran into that does the same thing. So maybe my confusion is only natural.

  9. #29
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    After have seen the Luc Besson's movie and the Milla Jovovich's Joan, I'd rather say that Joan of Arc was an ESFJ, not an INFP or an ISFP in any sort. She was an assertive, patriotic and ruthless guardian of the country. She fought for the kingdom first and last and so, was a defender of institutions and tradition. She was driven by feeling and impulsion, not by reflection or patience. She had low tolerance for new ideas, considered as a waste of time. But she was also very warm, meek and caring, and not concerned with cold and rational analysis, so not an Extroverted Thinker.

    She was totaly driven by her feelings wich were not "introverted" at all, but extroverted by nature. She was always busy and never random or easy-goiing.Her visions about God could be an effect of tertiary Ne, or a coping strategy to match pain, or maybe -why not- a true spiritual connection. Funny to see that ESFJ is so often considered as the "most religious" type and "most patriotic" type, and that the ESFJ guess is not expressed when we see an extremely religious and patriotic person.

    For her enneatype, she was a 6w7 Sx/So, of course.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

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  10. #30
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Visions of God have nothing to do with tertiary, primary, auxiliary, or inferior Ne. I've had visions, and it was because of being poisoned. And an ESFP can start thinking strangely if you keep them alone long enough. And then.. maybe people just have visions for some other inexplicable reason. MBTI is limited to basic, personality archetypes and wasn't meant to be an all encompassing theory that addresses that kind of stuff. Visions aren't why Joan of Arc is brought up in relation to the subject. The popular typlogists just type her that because of the Fi-like idealism. That said, she could be ESFJ, but you're jumping the gun by using "religious" and "visions" as your reasoning.

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