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  1. #231
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Note for all: Aleksei believes that an Fi-user is simply someone who "do what the hell he likes" and an Fe-user is someone who simply "do what societals norms dictate to do".
    Word of God on the subject:

    It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.
    http://cognitiveprocesses.com/introvertedfeeling.html

    The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.
    http://cognitiveprocesses.com/extravertedfeeling.html

    And then an abridged version of Lenore Thomson's definitions here.

    Fe, or extroverted Feeling is dominant for ExFJ, secondary for IxFJ, tertiary for ExTP and inferior for IxTP. It is an attitude that encourages adherence to the ethics of the cultural/social/familial groups we feel emotionally connected to. Fe leads you to derive your moral viewpoints from some sort of externalized consensus. This doesn't mean you automatically fall in line with whatever moral viewpoints happen to surround you, just that (unlike the accompanying Ti view on logic as something you don't need external input to understand) you don't see how ethics can be decided reasonably without some sort of external context. (Fe views ethics as dependent upon collective consensus in the same way Te views logic/impersonal ideas.)
    Fi, or introverted Feeling, is dominant for IxFP, secondary for ExFP, tertiary for IxTJ and inferior for ExTJ. Unlike Fe, Fi leads you to draw ethics purely from an internal, subjective source and finds Fe's collective approach to morality shallow and fake. Since ethics are purely a personal ideal in Fi's view, all personal feelings are sacred and allowing any outside views to affect them is patently unethical. Fi treats ethics in the same way Ti treats logic, in that it's something that requires no external context to understand and that should not be influenced or changed by any outside forces.
    In other words, I don't think Feeling functions are about ethics rather than emotions, this is how they are fucking defined. Could I get you to shut up about this now?

    ugh, fuck Ti users
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  2. #232
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    why u mad tho

  3. #233
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Stupidity annoys me. And this argument with Gavroche actually carried over from another thread on the subject. basically, he takes extroversion/introversion and thinking/feeling way too literally.
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  4. #234
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    I do agree with you on that. House still strikes me as Ti, I'll hear your take on why he intervenes with his own objective criteria- I don't watch the show avidly, but it would seem he is driven to do what's right in his mind. He overthrows usual approaches for out-of-the-blue ideas for his own subjective way of going about solving a medical issue. So it's either Fi or Ti, then. However, I still think he's a Ti user; he's pretty critical of everything. He clearly over-analyzes things, scouring them for kinks and doesn't really consider the ethic-portion of situations on a ton of occasions (I remember one episode where he wanted to inject a certain medication into a child patient that the other doctors suggested could have a serious negative effect on the person but he did it anyway right in front of them).

  5. #235
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggletron View Post
    I do agree with you on that. House still strikes me as Ti, I'll hear your take on why he intervenes with his own objective criteria- I don't watch the show avidly, but it would seem he is driven to do what's right in his mind. He overthrows usual approaches for out-of-the-blue ideas for his own subjective way of going about solving a medical issue. So it's either Fi or Ti, then. However, I still think he's a Ti user; he's pretty critical of everything. He clearly over-analyzes things, scouring them for kinks and doesn't really consider the ethic-portion of situations on a ton of occasions (I remember one episode where he wanted to inject a certain medication into a child patient that the other doctors suggested could have a serious negative effect on the person but he did it anyway right in front of them).
    He analyzes everything not in search of the truth, but in search of confirmation of his own warped view of the truth -- and when he doesn't find it he affirms it to be the truth anyway. he pretty much defines "confirmation bias." Not that that excludes Ti of course, but as I mentioned his framework of principles is derived not out of what he considers logical but what makes him feel better. The latter portion is an example of a Je/Ji conflict, not a Ti/Fi one. House's idea on the matter was that fuck the risks; if he had a chance to save his patient he needed to take it.
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  6. #236
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ i pretty much agree with all your points, but i don't think that makes house Fi over Ti.

    judgments processed through Ti basically are beliefs to some extent because they're objectively unfounded - being introverted, they are subjective - but they still follow logic. you have to somewhat "believe" in Ti though, because it's not like you can prove it objectively/externally. you can only show how many times it's right... but Fi beliefs, on the other hand, are more about weighting and comparison, instead of creating and extrapolating from logical principles.

    wanting to believe that all of humanity are worthless assholes, because it relieves him of responsibility for his own behavior
    that is logically consistent. all humans are assholes -> there is no reason for me to have a problem with myself being an asshole. it's a deterministic line of reasoning, even if it's stupid and clearly blind to other opinions. it's not really a weighting of how much it matters to himself if he's an asshole - that'd be more Fi-like. his self doesn't even occur in the primary step of reasoning (which is why, i think, Ti ends up appearing more objective than Fi, which is totally about oneself) - it's just truth or not, and then logically extrapolating from that personal belief of what's true to get Ti-based ethics.

  7. #237
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    F has fuck-all to do with emotions. F has to do with ethics, and personal beliefs. House is Fi (as opposed to Ti) because he is propelled by force of conviction on his beliefs, which arise not out objective logical examination, but what makes him feel better -- specifically, wanting to believe that all of humanity are worthless assholes, because it relieves him of responsibility for his own behavior. This has been deconstructed numerous times throughout the show, particularly by Wilson and Foreman. He is deductive, yes, but this deductiveness is subordinate to his beliefs, rather than vice-versa.
    You do realize that the argument "House has beliefs, therefore he is ENFP" is absurdly ridiculous, don't you?
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  8. #238
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You do realize that the argument "House has beliefs, therefore he is ENFP" is absurdly ridiculous, don't you?
    Everyone has beliefs. House has beliefs not derived from logical deduction (ie. beliefs that are not categorical imperatives), therefore he is not ENTP. And ENTP/ENFP are about the only logical options, as House is ridiculously Ne-dominant.

    I could be wrong about this. Skylights actually has a point. I'm just saying you misrepresented my argument.
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  9. #239
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Everyone has beliefs. House has beliefs derived from logical deduction (ie. beliefs that are not categorical imperatives), therefore he is not ENTP. And ENTP/ENFP are about the only logical options, as House is ridiculously Ne-dominant.
    It just gets worse and worse. So now the argument is "House's ethics are not deontological, therefore he is ENFP?" Ugh.
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  10. #240
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It just gets worse and worse. So now the argument is "House's ethics are not deontological, therefore he is ENFP?"
    What is Fi, to you?
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