American Beauty

[Aleksei]

Lester- ISFP
Caroline- Obvious bitch ESFJ
Jane- ISFP
Angela- ESFP
Ricky- INFP
Frank Fitts- ISTJ
Barbara- ISFJ
Buddy Kane- ENTJ

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Interesting. I'm curious as to your reasons for these pegs. I feel like I need to go rewatch American Beauty, so I can put in my two cents.

 

[Phantonym]

Caroline- Obvious bitch ESFJ

Sure, she's an ESFJ but why the need for "obvious bitch"? Lester is not that peachy either. Heck, none of them are. :rolli:

 

[Sunny Ghost]

lester lost is mojo.

 

[Aleksei]

Interesting. I'm curious as to your reasons for these pegs.

Lester- Lives in the physical world, in the present. Obviously doesn't like social interaction too much, and doesn't put any stock at all in social rules. I considered ISTP for him, but he's a little too whiny and capricious for it.

Jane gives off outright INFP vibes, but she doesn't seem too abstract, dreamy or loopy - she doesn't really show signs of Ne. Ricky on the other hand is a lot like her, but sees things no one else does -- like the beauty of death, or the way the plastic bag resembles life, etc.

Carolyn (not Caroline, sorry) is painfully ESFJ. She's sanctimonious, shallow, and plastic.

The Colonel is a clear STJ rule whore. I would guess ESTJ, except he's too quiet for it. His wife is more soft-spoken, but clearly as obsessed as him with order, duty and cleanliness.

Angela's ESFPness is also quite obvious. She's insecure, loves attention, and is a live-in-the-moment kind of person.

Buddy is the only character that's not 100% clear, but he seems quite ENTJ. He's sociable obviously, and shows a good deal of foresight and image-consciousness. He could be ESTJ, but he seems more soft-spoken and charismatic than an ESTJ would be.

Sure, she's an ESFJ but why the need for "obvious bitch"? Lester is not that peachy either. Heck, none of them are. :rolli:

Well, she's the most obvious example of her type in the movie, and I find her particular brand of petty, materialist sanctimoniousness by far the most annoying of any characters' flaws in that movie. I occasionally slip in a snide comment about a character like that besides their type (for example, I typed Greg Hale a "dick ENTP").

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Yeah, yeah, for lester and jane being isfp's.
i'm still inspired to rewatch american beauty today.

 

[Aleksei]

You should. It's a great movie

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Completely agreed! It's one of my favorites.

 

[ross_in_green]

well, i kind of disagree about angela being extroverted. when i think of her character, i usually think of how lost she is, how she needs somebody to take care of her, to listen to her, to admire her, but she's too absorbed with her image that she doesn't really care of others. she needs others' admiration, she needs to be the centre of attention, but it's a selfish need that to me doesn't imply an extroverted human being. maybe i'm mistaken. i'm new to the whole typology thing. : )

 

[Totenkindly]

Ricky is more INTP or INxP -- he is detached and steps outside of the human aspect of traumatic events. This detachment is not typical in INFPs, they typically retain too much of the human connection. Ricky's interaction with his father was far more similar to INTP use of Fe (he managed the relationship by learning and following the expected rules), while his relationship with his mum was detached on one level but broadly affectionate in the typical naive-but-sweet way an INTP will express personal affection. He "sees" everything and accepts people as they are, but also knows when to cut his losses and move on; even his personal observations come off as detached ("My parents will try to find me," says Jane. "Mine won't," says Ricky... and the sad part is that he is not really mourning the fact or being melodramatic, he is simply noting an honest fact as if it is not at all related to him.) Another signifier -- when he violates taboo, an INFP often will see to be aware of it and might even be rebelling against it in order to assert oneself, but Ricky is indifferent. It's not that he wants to violate taboo; he just doesn't really acknowledge that taboo even exists legitimately... yet another INTP style indicator.

Jane is INFP, not ISFP. She focuses on what lies underneath, not on the surface stuff. She's the same mentality as your typical Goth chick. She's also intrigued by Ricky because he violates her personal space, but she senses it is not meant to violate her -- it's just because he is detached -- and she is entranced by his detachment because she has trouble sharing it and it's almost like she wants to understand his secret so she can deal with her own crazy melodramatic family. The moment watching the bag video is the first time (aside from his mentioning of the dead body, etc.) where she really catches a true taste of Ricky's heart rather than his detached mind... and even then he is approaching the experiencing from a philosophical view, not a typical F one (the perfect merging of the INTP values of truth + beauty, often as embodied in nature)... and that's when she knows she is falling in love with him beyond just wanting to understand his secret of detachment.

Someone mentioned she doesn't show a lot of Ne. Why should she? She's an INFP, she's had all of her dreams belittled and crushed by her S parents, her best friend is an S, and she's retreated to her primary -- the Fi -- and replaced the Ne with a pragmatic wariness in order to protect her inner core. It's not safe for her to engage the real world much. With Ricky, she finally starts to feel safe.

I don't think Angela's an ESFP either. She's probably an introvert. She just wears the extroversion as a disguise to mask her insecurities. Her entire persona is just a disguise, which is why it's so exaggerated; she's trying to make herself seem far better than she actually believes about herself, in hopes others will love her. An extrovert would have handled Ricky's unmasking of her inner fears in a far different manner -- typically by lashing back. What did Angela do when she was stripped naked in front of her best friend and this man she hated? She did what introverts do: She ran away and hid, to be alone, and cry to herself.

Ricky's parents: ISTJ and ISFJ. They're almost cliches of the type, honestly. (And the mom has psychological issues.)

Carolyn is probably ESFJ -- she does tend to think "outside her head" rather than inside, and she has no real sense of self either, aside from what her life looks like and how successful she appears. It's all external, and she works frantically to make it look appealing and validate her life choices.

Not sure on Lester. ISFP is probably pretty valid. Yes, he's more whiny, and he's not as much of a detached jerk as an ISTP would be; his interactions still remain fairly personal throughout his transformation.

Buddy is ETJ, yes... not sure on the S/N, but it's still the same basic Te-primary, Pe-tertiary personality.

 

[Aleksei]

Jen: Great points.

well, i kind of disagree about angela being extroverted. when i think of her character, i usually think of how lost she is, how she needs somebody to take care of her, to listen to her, to admire her, but she's too absorbed with her image that she doesn't really care of others. she needs others' admiration, she needs to be the centre of attention, but it's a selfish need that to me doesn't imply an extroverted human being.

I'm not sure how it wouldn't. That she needs the attention and approval of her peers, gets off on it, is extroverted to the nth degree. Introverts are overwhelmed by excessive attention. Extroverts don't necessarily care about other people (that's more Fe), but we do require socialization -- attention. Histrionic narcissism of the type she exhibits is a common problem among all ExxP types.

maybe i'm mistaken. i'm new to the whole typology thing. : )

Don't worry about it.

 

[Tiltyred]

I feel a need to stick up for Carolyn, maybe because she's so much like my mother ... her husband turned into a total adolescent right before her eyes. Seems to me she has a right to some of that anger. I'm always so torn in the scene where it looks like she and her husband are going to reconnect and have sex on the couch (woo hoo, "sex on the couch" the true sign of spontaneity) and she realizes he's about to pour his beer on it and says so, ruining the moment. He says "It's just a couch!" and she says "It's SILK. It's ITALIAN. SILK."

I can never figure out what would have been the right thing to do in that situation.

 

[Aleksei]

I can never figure out what would have been the right thing to do in that situation.

Get it on in the couch of course. She can certainly afford to replace it.

 

[Totenkindly]

I actually really like Carolyn.

Yes, she's got some major issues, but as a character she was so awesomely portrayed by Annette Benning -- so shallow and divorced from herself in some ways, but also underlying that invasive aggression and drive and seeming lack of coherence is a real vulnerability and fear that she won't be able to keep her life together... and if she doesn't, she will not be able to depend on anyone else.

(After all, Lester sort of emotionally abandoned her long ago and now has become a loose cannon. He used to be passive, so she took charge, and perhaps vice versa; and now he's just become self-indulgent and self-focused. That Fi that the movie portrays so positively also is actually rather selfish, if you look at how Lester has divorced himself from his relationships in his process of liberation. Lester does not really break out of his selfish Fi mode until he chooses to not have sex with Angela, because he sees her as a real person, with real needs. That is the moment of Lester's true liberation.)

That whole scene where Carolynn tries to psyche herself up to "sell that house"? Wow. I can watch that scene time and again, it makes me want to laugh and cry simultaneously. She is amazing. She goes in there, gets herself going, works endlessly to make the house perfect, plows through the obstacles of the day, gives those sales everything she has... and fails miserably partly because the house sucks so bad and her buyers are sort of lame. You finally see her crack, after they all leave her in the empty house, when she breaks down momentarily... completely breaks down... and then you just watch her, the battered warrior, climb back to her feet, bloodied and bruised, get herself together, and march out to try again the next day.

War vets don't have anything on Carolyn. I find her perseverence impenetrable and yet amazing. It is one thing I've always valued in SFJs, honestly.

The reason she tries to hard to keep everyone in their assigned roles is because she's not yet stable enough internally to keep herself afloat if everything external changes. She just isn't self-aware enough right now to be able to articulate that, she keeps thinking that if she was more successful she'd feel secure OR that everyone else should stay where they are so that her house of cards does not collapse.

The "real" Carolyn is the one in Lester's final memory flashes -- where Carolyn is laughing on the amusement park ride. That captures the person that Carolyn could be, if she is secure within herself and just lets herself exist rather than trying to control every aspect of reality.

In any case, no one in this movie comes out looking good, really, they're all kind of self-obsessed and screwing others over to get what they think they need and deserve... except for maybe Ricky and Jane. They are the EveryPeople in the movie -- they want to be loved, accepted, and understood, but get none of it, and end up having to fend for themselves while trying not to hurt anyone else or USE anyone else.

 

[FlamingMask]

SJs are the Proprietary type. It would be natural for Carolyn to value their possessions more than Lester.

 

[neptunesnet]

I feel a need to stick up for Carolyn, maybe because she's so much like my mother ... her husband turned into a total adolescent right before her eyes. Seems to me she has a right to some of that anger. I'm always so torn in the scene where it looks like she and her husband are going to reconnect and have sex on the couch (woo hoo, "sex on the couch" the true sign of spontaneity) and she realizes he's about to pour his beer on it and says so, ruining the moment. He says "It's just a couch!" and she says "It's SILK. It's ITALIAN. SILK."

I can never figure out what would have been the right thing to do in that situation.

Yeah I know what you mean. I really disliked Lester's character. He was merciless, selfish, and so whiny. "You can't just decide one day to stop taking accountability for your actions & decisions, esp when you have a family" was mostly how I felt towards him throughout the movie. I also didn't care too much for Carolyn, either, but only because it felt like the audience wasn't supposed to identify with her. She was the designated "bad guy" so that we the audience could feel good about ourselves and bond through collectively hating her. Kind of sucks. I'd still pick her over Lester.

[stuff]

All good. I agree.

 

[Tiltyred]

Yes, me, too. I would pick her over Lester. And Lester making advances toward her on the couch and expecting her to go through with sex on the Italian Silk Couch in the formal living room is really kind of fucking her, not making love. It violates her values.

Carolyn laughing on the amusement park ride is Carolyn before she had any real responsibility. I guess we'd all like to stay in that place and be girlish and carefree, but it's a heavy expectation to put on someone.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah I know what you mean. I really disliked Lester's character. He was merciless, selfish, and so whiny. "You can't just decide one day to stop taking accountability for your actions & decisions, esp when you have a family" was mostly how I felt towards him throughout the movie. I also didn't care too much for Carolyn, either, but only because it felt like the audience wasn't supposed to identify with her. She was the designated "bad guy" so that we the audience could feel good about ourselves and bond through collectively hating her. Kind of sucks. I'd still pick her over Lester.

The story was really about Lester's growth. I was hard on Lester above, yet I think I should add that usually when one moves from passivity and being a child, one goes through a rebellious and self-absorbed stage. This is Lester throughout most of the movie, and I think it was actually necessary for him to pass through that wasteland to get to a good place.

His catharsis when he "wakes up" and takes care of Angela is his moment of glory. It's unfortunate that he never gets to move past it because of his neighbor's phobia and rigidity. If he had survived, I actually think things between him and Carolyn would have changed. He would have finally reached out to her; and after some internal struggle on her part, she would have reached back. Her wailing in the bedroom, clutching his clothes and smelling the smell of him, after she knows he is gone, really shows how much she really did love him; the end of their relationship is devastating to her, regardless of how just a few minutes before she was contemplating violence herself.

All good. I agree.

Added a bit more. (sorry, I do that! ) See what you think.

Yes, me, too. I would pick her over Lester. And Lester making advances toward her on the couch and expecting her to go through with sex on the Italian Silk Couch in the formal living room is really kind of fucking her, not making love. It violates her values.

I see relationships as both. Sometimes you do things consciously, sometimes you just let yourself loose and enjoy the moment. (I think maybe we're having J/P bump here. ) But I do agree that Carolyn was in a place where her life was crumbling, so it was kind of hard for him to expect her to just "let go" even though it was clear she did want to; and she only got a chance to make one comment that broke the mood before he lashed out at her. He was definitely not thinking about her right then, even while she was still considering the sofa.

Carolyn laughing on the amusement park ride is Carolyn before she had any real responsibility. I guess we'd all like to stay in that place and be girlish and carefree, but it's a heavy expectation to put on someone.

I agree, you can't expect someone to stay there forever even though I think it's an "idealized" view of her.

I think once someone reaches a good place in their lives, they are able to be both at once. They can let go in the situations that are best participated in by letting go (retaining their childlike joy and innocence), yet also be aware and mature and complex in situations that demand a more controlled and responsible adult perspective.

In the movie, Lester was stuck in "child mode" and Carolyn was stuck in "adult mode." Which created a mother/son relationship between them, rather than one of peers. If it had been balanced, both of them could have been adults together, children together, or parents together.

 

[Tiltyred]

Lester was a bit of a late bloomer.

 

[neptunesnet]

That Fi that the movie portrays so positively also is actually rather selfish, if you look at how Lester has divorced himself from his relationships in his process of liberation. Lester does not really break out of his selfish Fi mode until he chooses to not have sex with Angela, because he sees her as a real person, with real needs. That is the moment of Lester's true liberation.

That's one of the fears I've had myself. Not the temptation of entering into that frame of mind but rather being a victim of it (because I have the capacity of being it and know what it's capable of). I've been very wary of it and critical of it in myself, sometimes too much, to avoid Fi that's unfiltered like that and selfish and knows no consequences. Now, I just couldn't even begin to understand that on a personal level. Developed Ne helps (for me).