Rachel Ray

[KDude]

Drew Barrymore, Ashton Kutcher, Ellen Degeneres, and Ricki Lake and maybe Oprah are slightly better examples of ENFp. With drew and ashton and ellen being the funny Ne type, and Ricki and Oprah more serious Fi types. I think Fi types seem ENFJ in MBTI.

Tiger Woods may be another EII believe it or not.

There's a sports MBTI guy who tested him, I think (Jon Neidnagel), and he came out MBTI INFP apparently. Could be a coincidence.

http://www.athletebraintypes.com/2007/08/beware-an-infp-.html

 

[Orangey]

They look similar, with the F one being more smiley. But according to what she herself says, off camera, she both looks and acts more like this last one. I remember she once showed a clip of herself shopping, and she wasn't all made up, and she did look quote different, and could fit that last one.

How does this...

...look like this?

The expression certainly isn't the only difference between the two, and Rachel Ray can smile or frown and she will still look ESFJ.

 

[Orangey]

I can see it.

OT: Do you have any for infp, infj, enfp?

Sure. Here we go...

INFP: Tina Fey, John Lennon, Adrian Brody

INFJ: River Phoenix, Claire Danes, Dido, Sofia Coppola, Embeth Davidz

ENFP: Ellen Degeneres, Michael Moore, Owen Wilson, Rob Reiner, Sinbad, Andy Samberg

 

[Orangey]

KDude, I agree that Mia Wachichowska is INFJ, Ellen Degeneres is ENFP (pics of that in my last post), Angelina Jolie and Mira Aroyo are ISTP (I also added ISTP Megan Fox below for more reference), and Rose McGowan is ESFP. That said, I don't agree that Olivia Munn is ENFP (ISTP), that Ashton Kutcher is ENFP (ESTP), that Oprah is ENFP (ESFJ), that Ricki Lake is ENFP (ESTJ), or that Tiger Woods is INFJ (ISFP.) I don't know what the hell Drew Barrymore is, though I suppose I could possibly see ENFP. Have a look.

INFJ:

ISTP:

ESFP:

ESTP:

ESFJ:

ESTJ:

ISFP:

 

[Eric B]

How does this...

...look like this?

The expression certainly isn't the only difference between the two, and Rachel Ray can smile or frown and she will still look ESFJ.

Well, it's more than simply a smile or frown. Again, I have seen at least one clip of her not made up, and she did look a bit different. As does Oprah (who in real life looks more like any other older black lady you might see somewhere).

I see now that this whole "type by face" thing is being taken a bit more serious than I thought, with Socionics being evoked and all, and I know they advocate that. (They go even further than that, into body type/posture, etc). But I believe that's just their peculiar idea, and the types don't even always line up with MBTI.

While you can get an idea of a person's Interaction Style by looking at their facial expressions over time, it can be taken too far, especially when deciding between similar types. ESFP and ESTP are close, as are ESFP and ESFJ. They are all expressive, and at least part "Sanguine", so if you see them when they are smiling and friendly, they may look the same.

I watch her everyday, and I don't see how anyone could think she is J. You're probably seeing tertiary Fe, again. Like on Jenocyde's blog, we were just comparing ENTP and ESFJ, and she acknowledges being similar to ESFJ because of the tertiary Fe. And in person, she was bright and smiley like that.
Like KDude said, it's a "girly" thing and the tertiary already tends to "inflate" itself as it is.

 

[Orangey]

Well, it's more than simply a smile or frown. Again, I have seen at least one clip of her not made up, and she did look a bit different. As does Oprah (who in real life looks more like any other older black lady you might see somewhere).

Unless she magically grows a heavy, flat lower jaw as soon as she removes her makeup (not to mention an entirely different head shape), I'm really not convinced. And I do not understand the pertinence of your comment about Oprah. She "looks like any other black lady you might see somewhere?" What is your point? I wasn't calling her ESFJ because I thought she looked particularly special...

I see now that this whole "type by face" thing is being taken a bit more serious than I thought, with Socionics being evoked and all, and I know they advocate that. (They go even further than that, into body type/posture, etc). But I believe that's just their peculiar idea, and the types don't even always line up with MBTI.

And what is the basis of your belief? The only reason types don't "line up" is because self-described members of various MBTI types claim that they are a different type in socionics. You interpret this as meaning that the systems are not (overall) equivalent. It could just as easily be that those people are simply mistyped in one or both of the systems.

While you can get an idea of a person's Interaction Style by looking at their facial expressions over time, it can be taken too far, especially when deciding between similar types. ESFP and ESTP are close, as are ESFP and ESFJ. They are all expressive, and at least part "Sanguine", so if you see them when they are smiling and friendly, they may look the same.

I don't think those types look all that similar. It's not only expression, like I said, but overall face shape and proportions.

I watch her everyday, and I don't see how anyone could think she is J. You're probably seeing tertiary Fe, again. Like on Jenocyde's blog, we were just comparing ENTP and ESFJ, and she acknowledges being similar to ESFJ because of the tertiary Fe. And in person, she was bright and smiley like that.
Like KDude said, it's a "girly" thing and the tertiary already tends to "inflate" itself as it is.

You're privileging your own "knowledge" of what an ESFJ acts like, which can have no possible anchor in reality because typing based on behavior is indeterminate. And even if it weren't, your rationalization of overt Fe behavior as being the result of tertiary Fe is simply that...a rationalization. If behavior is the marker, and someone behaves like an ESFJ, then they are most likely ESFJ and not EXTP with really high "girly" Fe.

 

[Eric B]

Unless she magically grows a heavy, flat lower jaw as soon as she removes her makeup (not to mention an entirely different head shape), I'm really not convinced. And I do not understand the pertinence of your comment about Oprah. She "looks like any other black lady you might see somewhere?" What is your point? I wasn't calling her ESFJ because I thought she looked particularly special...

I don't think those types look all that similar. It's not only expression, like I said, but overall face shape and proportions.

You're privileging your own "knowledge" of what an ESFJ acts like, which can have no possible anchor in reality because typing based on behavior is indeterminate.

And even if it weren't, your rationalization of overt Fe behavior as being the result of tertiary Fe is simply that...a rationalization. If behavior is the marker, and someone behaves like an ESFJ, then they are most likely ESFJ and not EXTP with really high "girly" Fe.

So we can't use behavior in typing, but we can use facial bone structure? I'm sorry; but that makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Personality is not connected to physical body parts.
You can look at facial expressions to get a possible idea, but not the bone structure. What does one have to do with the other at all?

And doesn't the other picture have a heavier flatter jaw because he's a guy?

(What I meant about Oprah is that all the makeup they wear can even make the face look like a different shape; hiding bumps, fat, etc. But I see you're really serious about this bone structure thing, but I just don't believe that has anything to do with type).

And what is the basis of your belief? The only reason types don't "line up" is because self-described members of various MBTI types claim that they are a different type in socionics. You interpret this as meaning that the systems are not (overall) equivalent. It could just as easily be that those people are simply mistyped in one or both of the systems.

Because descriptions are different, from what some say. (both types and functions). And if you're serious about jawbones and such; that is surely a totally different system.
If that is true, then they shouldn't use questionnaires to figure type; they should use a physical examination!

 

[Orangey]

So we can't use behavior in typing, but we can use facial bone structure? I'm sorry; but that makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Personality is not connected to physical body parts.
You can look at facial expressions to get a possible idea, but not the bone structure. What does one have to do with the other at all?

And doesn't the other picture have a heavier flatter jaw because he's a guy?

(What I meant about Oprah is that all the makeup they wear can even make the face look like a different shape; hiding bumps, fat, etc. But I see you're really serious about this bone structure thing, but I just don't believe that has anything to do with type).
Because descriptions are different, from what some say. (both types and functions). And if you're serious about jawbones and such; that is surely a totally different system.
If that is true, then they shouldn't use questionnaires to figure type; they should use a physical examination!

I'm just saying that both ways of typing are indeterminate, so you have no reason to privilege the behavioral-observational method over anything else. And that's fine if you have some sort of prejudice against VI, but don't make it sound like it's any crazier than typing by personally interpreting the bits and pieces of behavior that we're able to observe of celebrities (i.e., total strangers.) Your claim is that you can't see how a connection between personality and facial structure could exist, therefore none does. How is that a good argument?

And no, the lower jaw is NOT heavier and flatter simply because he's a guy. Look at Jennifer Coolidge. She matches the picture in the same way that Jack Black does.

Then look at Rachel Ray. She does not have the same pattern of features that these three have.

I think that the proposed lack of equivalence between socionics and MBTI types is a misconception. The end result is that an ESTj still sounds pretty much like an ESTJ, so even if the functional names and definitions used in the process of coming to the result are different, it really doesn't matter in the end. Why do the functions and their meanings have to be the same in both systems in order for the types to line up?

 

[chihuahuasrluv]

I'm just saying that both ways of typing are indeterminate, so you have no reason to privilege the behavioral-observational method over anything else. And that's fine if you have some sort of prejudice against VI, but don't make it sound like it's any crazier than typing by personally interpreting the bits and pieces of behavior that we're able to observe of celebrities (i.e., total strangers.) Your claim is that you can't see how a connection between personality and facial structure could exist, therefore none does. How is that a good argument?

And no, the lower jaw is NOT heavier and flatter simply because he's a guy. Look at Jennifer Coolidge. She matches the picture in the same way that Jack Black does.

Then look at Rachel Ray. She does not have the same pattern of features that these three have.

I think that the proposed lack of equivalence between socionics and MBTI types is a misconception. The end result is that an ESTj still sounds pretty much like an ESTJ, so even if the functional names and definitions used in the process of coming to the result are different, it really doesn't matter in the end. Why do the functions and their meanings have to be the same in both systems in order for the types to line up?

You're right, the chin proves it. Even when she's not smiling the chin is prominent where it isn't with Jack, Jennifer, and Ashton.

 

[Eric B]

I'm just saying that both ways of typing are indeterminate, so you have no reason to privilege the behavioral-observational method over anything else. And that's fine if you have some sort of prejudice against VI, but don't make it sound like it's any crazier than typing by personally interpreting the bits and pieces of behavior that we're able to observe of celebrities (i.e., total strangers.) Your claim is that you can't see how a connection between personality and facial structure could exist, therefore none does. How is that a good argument?

Because personality is shaped by the brain, and physical structure is not shaped by the brain, and is totally independent of personality. It can even be changed!

Can you tell me what factor would cause both a particular preference for different functions or temperament needs, and for the face and body to take a particular shape, and for this to always match.

Typing by behavior, while not perfect, is closer to the essence of what makes a person themselves. That's why I believe in the Multiple Model (cognitive, temperament, Interaction Styles), where the latter two are more behavior-based, but still directly correspond with the cognitive preferences.
So if a person is understimulated by the external environment, then they will tend to turn outward more, thus manifest "extroverted" behavior in approaching others, and their dominant function will be oriented outward. One is a clue of the other.
How does the shape of their bones figure in this?

And no, the lower jaw is NOT heavier and flatter simply because he's a guy. Look at Jennifer Coolidge. She matches the picture in the same way that Jack Black does.

Jack Black does look like that drawing, but I'm not seeing where the other two do. Their jaws look pointier. And they're at different angles at that.

 

[Nicodemus]

Where do you get those drawings?

 

[Orangey]

Here.