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Firefly characters

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
3,626
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp

Resonance

Energizer Bunny
Joined
May 18, 2010
Messages
740
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INfj
Enneagram
6w5
INTJs don't scare you half so much as a nearly competent ISFJ. The Mastermind about to take over the world is eclipsed by the caring, gentle nurse attendant of your nightmares, huh? The cloying, suffocating, helpless... love. You'd label it INTJ to escape the sweet baby butterfly kisses?

I love you, man.
On the contrary, these characters:
CodegeassR20135LG-1-.jpg

TakaniMegumi.PNG

Lulu.png

are all just as competent as Simon and far more ISFJ.
 

Harold Saxon

New member
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Mar 10, 2010
Messages
137
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w5
Suzaku Kururugi strikes me as far more INFJ (displaying Ni-Fe rather than Si-Fe - though this is entirely off the thread's topic), but yes, I agree with the general premise of the arguments that you and Aleksei have used.
 

Resonance

Energizer Bunny
Joined
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Messages
740
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INfj
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6w5
Suzaku Kururugi strikes me as far more INFJ (displaying Ni-Fe rather than Si-Fe - though this is entirely off the thread's topic), but yes, I agree with the general premise of the arguments that you and Aleksei have used.

honestly he just seems like more of a fighter and a guardian than an idealist and a revolutionary. "Yes I agree that the system is corrupt but I am going to change it from within." But you know he was just gonna keep climbing the feudal ladder and taking orders if it weren't for Lelouch's passion. He would have forgotten his burning trauma in favour of the status quo, because it treats him alright.

Function-wise he probably is more Ni-ish, just because he has to keep up with Lelouch, but whatever.

I just didn't want to give all female examples. >.< Even though ISFJ (especially in Japan) is the supposed 'ideal woman' type.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
Ariel

Simon: "You know what this is?"

And he puts bottles of drugs into the hands of the crew. To show them the importance and value of his plan and make it real for them, he puts things into their hands. That's pretty intuitive.

And seemingly the longest part of the preparation is having Mal, Zoe and Jayne rote learn some EMT jargon. (So Simon was intimately familiar with the security features of a modern hospitals and the criminal acquisition of uniforms, ID badges and keycards but likes to see people get details right... and the non-ISTJs Mal and Zoe can't seem to, except with a lot of repetition...:doh:)

River: "I don't want to go to that place, I don't want to die!"
Simon: "No, no one is going to die, it's okay. The others will take care of us whiile we're asleep. And when we get back--"
River: [demures emphatically]
Simon: "--No-no-no, shh-shh-shh, River. River, it's okay. This--this could be what we've been hoping for. When this is over, I'll be able to help you. I'll be able to make the nightmares go away. Okay? Lie back. It's time to go to sleep."

Way to take the decision out of Lil Sis' hands by not telling her what he expected to find with the scan. The scan was hopeful. And Lil Sis is already smart enough to know the scientific explanation of "We're going to be asleep." It's not like she could handle or be expected to be engaged in the process by some extroverted thinking description of what the scan was going to be useful for. And all that risk was going to be useful because Simon didn't know what else to do!

Blah blah blah

Mal to Jayne: "That's not what I'm talking about. Am I gonna have a problem with you and Simon."
Jayne: "It's up to him."
Mal: "Look, you got a little stabbed the other day."


So it was Mal who spotted that contingency?




If one genuinely starts picking at the details of the Plan, it'll start to be that only extreme examples of types will fit whatever pattern is to be found, but still, what stops a moderately smart (aka gifted as fuck, just like his sister, because that's how they were both introduced) ISFJ being the mastermind for a day?
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
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And he puts bottles of drugs into the hands of the crew. To show them the importance and value of his plan and make it real for them, he puts things into their hands. That's pretty intuitive.
"Challenge someone's thinking based on the logic clearly before you two" - Empirical thinking. Te.

And seemingly the longest part of the preparation is having Mal, Zoe and Jayne rote learn some EMT jargon. (So Simon was intimately familiar with the security features of a modern hospitals and the criminal acquisition of uniforms, ID badges and keycards but likes to see people get details right... and the non-ISTJs Mal and Zoe can't seem to, except with a lot of repetition...:doh:)
Well, none of them has the slightest bit of training in the medical field, and the jargon in question is rather complicated as fuck. They were out of their depth. Rote memorization seems like the logical course of action.

River: "I don't want to go to that place, I don't want to die!"
Simon: "No, no one is going to die, it's okay. The others will take care of us whiile we're asleep. And when we get back--"
River: [demures emphatically]
Simon: "--No-no-no, shh-shh-shh, River. River, it's okay. This--this could be what we've been hoping for. When this is over, I'll be able to help you. I'll be able to make the nightmares go away. Okay? Lie back. It's time to go to sleep."

Way to take the decision out of Lil Sis' hands by not telling her what he expected to find with the scan. The scan was hopeful. And Lil Sis is already smart enough to know the scientific explanation of "We're going to be asleep." It's not like she could handle or be expected to be engaged in the process by some extroverted thinking description of what the scan was going to be useful for. And all that risk was going to be useful because Simon didn't know what else to do!
Little sis is brilliant of course, he knows she is. He said so himself in the intro. The way she's acting she doesn't appear to be in full control of that powerfully logical brain of hers, though, so it's not exactly fair to blame him for not thinking she is. Not that any of this really matters of course, as none of it proves he's Fe rather than Fi (hint: he's not).


If one genuinely starts picking at the details of the Plan, it'll start to be that only extreme examples of types will fit whatever pattern is to be found, but still, what stops a moderately smart (aka gifted as fuck, just like his sister, because that's how they were both introduced) ISFJ being the mastermind for a day?
Anyone can come up with a plan, of course. The sheer intricacy and forethought of that plan however, says that an Ni-Te user came up with it.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Little sis is brilliant of course, he knows she is. He said so himself in the intro. The way she's acting she doesn't appear to be in full control of that powerfully logical brain of hers, though, so it's not exactly fair to blame him for not thinking she is. Not that any of this really matters of course, as none of it proves he's Fe rather than Fi (hint: he's not).

That particular speech of his doesn't reek of emotional controls over empirical thinking? He was speechifying to obtain her consent and he appealled to what? Empirical thinking? Or faith in yer lovin' brother who cares for you? And who doesn't involve you in thinking about things because he cares for you most of all.

Plainly, since as far as we know he didn't inquire of her as to why she had slashed Jayne, he thinks she's not amenable to reasoned discussion and won't produce accurate reflections of her own condition, so--because he's all pragmatic and feeling deeply for his actions with respect to her--he puts on a big show of deep, functional concern so that she will comply?

Good to know this about INTJs, that emo-tripping we use to get people on board with our schemes.

Anyone can come up with a plan, of course. The sheer intricacy and forethought of that plan however, says that an Ni-Te user came up with it.

Sheer intricacy, my ass. How many times must this be pointed out--global isn't intricate--INTJs overlook details in order to reach the big picture. Now if you were talking contingencies, then they don't overlook anything, but detailed specification is for the plebs. How more Si can one get than overspecification of detail?

I'll grant that if an ISFJ hasn't done a thing before, they'll be really slow to approach it pragmatically, and they'll feel around a lot before committing to action, so Simon out of nowhere appearing as a criminal mastermind is odd. But he had done all that kind of thing before. He did it when he broke River out in the first place. And who in hell knows how he planned that job, eh? But we do know he tried and failed once before then too. And totally, utterly displayed snotty extraverted feeling, not caught-in-the-act, committed to pragmatic success extraverted thinking:

Mr. Tam: Have you completely lost your mind?
Simon: Pretty nearly.
Mr. Tam: We got the Wave at the Freedlakes. I had to leave the dinner table
Simon: I'm sorry Dad. You know I would never have tried to save River's life if I had known there was a dinner party at risk.


How is everyone trying to think INTJs are this kind of pansy? INTJs do hysteria over other people not following their orders about processes and truth, not social insults. (Yeah yeah, Simon does that too when his parents don't believe him about River, so he bypasses them and attempts a rescue on his own--how very utilitarian and pragmatic--but how does he function on a day-to-day level... NOT INTJ. And I'll be snooty and caring if you don't believe me because I'll still love you. It's the INTJ way.)
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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This debate is annoying for the especially retarded point that I'm about to demonstrate, the thing that Simon doesn't ever do: attempt to escape by reconfiguring the whole environment. Like so:

It's especially retarded how functions are being debated in this discussion. There's something superficial and completely fucked up wrong about avoiding finding out how other people can do the magical things granted by legend to specific types. A caper gets planned: must be INTJ. How else does one plan other than by extraverting thinking? And if it's a surprise plan, must be made up magical details thus introverted intuition.

There's something completely inadequate in finding ways to have certain types NOT be able to display some given cognitive effect. In other words, act like they produced something inside their own heads in some way that sufficed for what was needed.

Now does Simon ever reconfigure the entire conceptual environment to get anywhere? Not just for fun, but as his primary method of discovering how to move forward at all. Because that would be introverted intuition in a dominant position. And he'd be a Ni-dom if that was his primary way of approaching EVERYTHING, not just random capers. And he'd be oriented on extraverted thinking if in general he looked for means to ends before looking to people.

And so freaking on.

These are minds we are speaking of. The things that everyone has. They just aren't that minor a player in what happens for people. They do a lot more with what little they've been given than people seem to be giving them credit for.



You have basically to explain how an ISFJ must fail to act like Simon does. You have to put them in their box before you can properly pretend they're INTJs.

Fill in the details yourselves.
 

Kalach

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And lastly, if NI doesn't detect patterns in the outside world and is about intricacy and if no one's arguing IJ, then that's ISXJ for Simon right there. What's left to work out is how an Fe aux sumbitch could endeavor to rob a hospital.

It's a phenomenon, you freaks, NPs identifying introverted intuition with their own experience of sensing. Because what's the opposite of extroverted intuition? That's right, you guessed it: introverted sensing.

Biases, projection, witchcraft.


And how does Simon really deal with the exterior world anyway, huh? How? He sees it as a giant scheme of impersonal moving parts, does he?
 

Kalach

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What for? To rule out personality-based explanations as explanations of personality? Good plan. You're an ISFJ too.



Attribution error has to bite pretty hard here, I guess. Like, "He planned a robbery, he's INTJ". What is that--situational or personality-based? Actually, identify a single statement ever that attributes a personality type to anyone that doesn't fall under the rubric of attribution error.

Presumably you were suggesting some other, ah, deep insight, that would arise if one waved at attribution error?
 

Speed Gavroche

Whisky Old & Women Young
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Mal: ENTJ
Zoe: ISTJ
Wash: ISFP
Inara: ESFJ
Jayne: ISTP
Kaylee: ESFP
Dr. Simon Tam: ESTP
River Tam: INTP
Derrial Book: ENFJ
 

Resonance

Energizer Bunny
Joined
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Messages
740
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INfj
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6w5
What for? To rule out personality-based explanations as explanations of personality?
To rule out situational behaviours as explanations of personality.

Like, for example, caring for the emotions of your brain-damaged sister and only person that matters to you in the whole universe.

Good plan. You're an ISFJ too.
sure, my underlying motivations to serve humanity as a whole at the expense of...

wait, that doesn't make sense

Attribution error has to bite pretty hard here, I guess. Like, "He planned a robbery, he's INTJ". What is that--situational or personality-based? Actually, identify a single statement ever that attributes a personality type to anyone that doesn't fall under the rubric of attribution error.
Yes, I'll admit that planning a robbery alone doesn't class him as INTJ.

Hence why I provided other examples, based on a holistic type profile.

Presumably you were suggesting some other, ah, deep insight, that would arise if one waved at attribution error?
nope just a shallow one

I'm not great with deep stuff
 

Kalach

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To rule out situational behaviours as explanations of personality.

Like, for example, caring for the emotions of your brain-damaged sister and only person that matters to you in the whole universe.

Ah. He's an INTJ, but exceptional circumstances are making him act out of character, thus he's an INTJ.

And not, say, an ISFJ under exceptional circumstances and being kinda uncharacteristic and, say, discovering how to rob a hospital.

There's no follow-up. Simon the Mastermind only masterminds this one job and doesn't get involved with other jobs. Crucially, he doesn't get involved with directing Mal to bigger schemes where River gets more help. But, no, his masterminding only went as far as exactly what he already knew--hospitals and being a doctor (on the run).

Maybe he would have branched out if there had been a season 2.

So anyway, that leaves us with the way he acts every day and what it suggests about his character. And I say his directive character in immediate interactions is based on feeling, not on thinking.



Besides which, it isn't the Simon Tam show. He is bound by the karmic law of supporting characters to never wholly eclipse the main focus. He's obliged to always end up subordinate to Mal's ISTJ world of being cowboys and being what yer always was. Even if he wanted to be INTJ he wouldn't be allowed.


ISFJ


Because he's a doctor in a cowboy show with a sister. Cain't hope fer better.

Which makes Inara ESFJ. But River.... what's River now? If she could control technology with her mind, then she'd be INTP. Given Objects in Space she's either precognitive INFJ or Technology Ghost INTP. Or both. Or neither.


(Inara gets away with that kind of interaction mode and is called FJ, but when Simon does it he's TJ? Because he has a sister?)
 

Resonance

Energizer Bunny
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ok whatever I'm not going for a phd in mbti so I'll let you have final say
 

Kalach

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O, there's more. I just remembered Buffy.

Joss Whedon has written INTJs before. And ISFJs. And ISTJs.


So.... Giles and Simon... how do they compare? And Simon and Riley.



It's not especially convincing, but it's something. And it's going to tell us something magical about types in fiction.
 

Resonance

Energizer Bunny
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that they work about as well as they do in reality?
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
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Mal: ENTJ
Quite possible, but he does seem more Ti/Fe rather than Te/Fi. He lets things go almost instantly (Fe leaders are soft, Te leaders aren't), and he's got quite the heroic streak to him. The reason he looks Te is because Fillon can't play a non-Te character. I still say ENTP.

Inara: ESFJ
S? Hell no. Inara is the second most obviously intuitive character aboard the ship, after River. She gives off a "mystical mentor" vibe very typical to NFJs, and shows a great deal of foresight.

Wash: ISFP
Wash is highly sociable, and his piloting style seems highly experimental ("improvisational" wasn't the right word -- apologies to Whatever, Se can be improvisational). He just tries different approaches he thinks up to get out of tight spots, and like Mal he does show a certain amount of foresight (this could of course be tertiary Ni, but that's highly unlikely given his Te is far too strong to be inferior -- he's actually better at planning capers than Mal is). ENFP.

Dr. Simon Tam: ESTP
Now this is lulzy. Simon, ESTP? Socially awkward, stuffy, businesslike Simon ESTP? Ni-on-crack Simon, who came up with an intricate plan to rob a fucking medical facility, ESTP? C'mon man, you can do better than that.

Derrial Book: ENFJ
Book seems a bit too quiet for an ENFJ, and not preachy enough.

The rest seem right though.
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
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That particular speech of his doesn't reek of emotional controls over empirical thinking? He was speechifying to obtain her consent and he appealled to what? Empirical thinking? Or faith in yer lovin' brother who cares for you? And who doesn't involve you in thinking about things because he cares for you most of all.

Plainly, since as far as we know he didn't inquire of her as to why she had slashed Jayne, he thinks she's not amenable to reasoned discussion and won't produce accurate reflections of her own condition, so--because he's all pragmatic and feeling deeply for his actions with respect to her--he puts on a big show of deep, functional concern so that she will comply?

Good to know this about INTJs, that emo-tripping we use to get people on board with our schemes.
Irrelevant. Simon's Feeling function is very obviously not Fe, which puts ISFJ off the map. And it's not like INTJs are incapable of being affectionate (maybe you are, but projecting's a bad idea ;)). You should see my INTJ best friend's conversations with his girlfriend... he makes Simon up there look like a Cyberman by comparison. :laugh:

Sheer intricacy, my ass. How many times must this be pointed out--global isn't intricate--INTJs overlook details in order to reach the big picture.
Ni does that. Te takes care of contingencies, which he was doing, which involves detail work.

How is everyone trying to think INTJs are this kind of pansy? INTJs do hysteria over other people not following their orders about processes and truth, not social insults. (Yeah yeah, Simon does that too when his parents don't believe him about River, so he bypasses them and attempts a rescue on his own--how very utilitarian and pragmatic--but how does he function on a day-to-day level... NOT INTJ. And I'll be snooty and caring if you don't believe me because I'll still love you. It's the INTJ way.)
Fi. Fi. Fi!!!!!! That he, unlike you, is not a goddamn sociopath and cares for his sister (and no one else but his sister) is not proof he's an F type, it's proof he's a human fucking being. INTJs can very much care deeply, passionately for those close to them.
 

Aerithria

Senior Thread Terminator
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The reason INTJ villains always fail is because their plans tend to ignore some detail that ends up screwing them over. A plan that's detailed to the point of flawlessness is indicative of strong Si, not Ni. Also, INTJs plan things for the way long run -- notice how Simon Tam's plans don't really go past the task at hand. I doubt an INTJ would leave it at "rescue sister" without knowing how they were supposed to go on afterward.

Out of curiosity, is there any reason Simon couldn't be an ISTJ? Granted, it's been a while since I've watched the series, but I'm having trouble picturing Fe/Ti for him.
 
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