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  1. #101
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerithria View Post
    The reason INTJ villains always fail is because their plans tend to ignore some detail that ends up screwing them over. A plan that's detailed to the point of flawlessness is indicative of strong Si, not Ni. Also, INTJs plan things for the way long run -- notice how Simon Tam's plans don't really go past the task at hand. I doubt an INTJ would leave it at "rescue sister" without knowing how they were supposed to go on afterward.

    Out of curiosity, is there any reason Simon couldn't be an ISTJ? Granted, it's been a while since I've watched the series, but I'm having trouble picturing Fe/Ti for him.
    Simon could be ISTJ. That's more plausible than ISFJ. Watching 'safe' right now.

    ...actually yeah that does make sense.

    ...until he starts getting her letters.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  2. #102
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    With such beacons of introverted feeling as Wash and Kaylee and most especially Mal, you want to go ahead and say that's what motivates Simon? I won't stand for it, y'hear. Simon uses feeling to punish and control and makes it a condition of interactions between people, like Inara and Book do.

    Whedon may have wanted to write a mastermind driven by inner resolve, but he wrote him sappy and pansy. That's ISFJ!



    Simon: It's from the book, River.
    River: No, the book's wrong. This whole conclusion is fallacious.
    Simon: So, how'd the Independents cut us off?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #103
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    With such beacons of introverted feeling as Wash and Kaylee and most especially Mal, you want to go ahead and say that's what motivates Simon? I won't stand for it, y'hear. Simon uses feeling to punish and control and makes it a condition of interactions between people, like Inara and Book do.

    Whedon may have wanted to write a mastermind driven by inner resolve, but he wrote him sappy and pansy. That's ISFJ!



    Simon: It's from the book, River.
    River: No, the book's wrong. This whole conclusion is fallacious.
    Simon: So, how'd the Independents cut us off?
    Yup, that scene clearly indicates Fe. Can you shut up about this now?
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  4. #104
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerithria View Post
    The reason INTJ villains always fail is because their plans tend to ignore some detail that ends up screwing them over. A plan that's detailed to the point of flawlessness is indicative of strong Si, not Ni. Also, INTJs plan things for the way long run -- notice how Simon Tam's plans don't really go past the task at hand. I doubt an INTJ would leave it at "rescue sister" without knowing how they were supposed to go on afterward.

    Out of curiosity, is there any reason Simon couldn't be an ISTJ? Granted, it's been a while since I've watched the series, but I'm having trouble picturing Fe/Ti for him.
    Now this isn't a retarded argument like Kalach's was.

    But it's still wrong. Simon spent a full year planning River's escape, had several contingencies ready (which he had to use), and did know what to do afterwards: Cryogenically freeze her, then hide out in the outer planets. But... then happened something he didn't expect (that one missed detail that unravels the evil villain's plan ): she woke up and the crew of the ship he boarded raised a ruckus, fucking up his plans (halfway anyway, he did ultimately end up hiding out on the edges of the galaxy, on the move, aboard Serenity).

    Oh, and lest we forget, he discerned River was in danger from... spelling mistakes in her letters. I doubt an ISTJ (or an ISFJ *looks pointedly at Kalach*) would look at that and go "they must be torturing her!"
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  5. #105
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blairvoyant View Post
    Yup, that scene clearly indicates Fe. Can you shut up about this now?
    It indicates reliance on structured authority--the book. Do we know if Simon thought his sister's anaylses dumb? Too dumb to trust if they contradicted Teh Rulez? Si and/or considerable non-indulgence in intuition, and not even immature Te because then he would have argued about the book, not switched the topic to something people pleasing.

    You guys and your wacky insistence on seeing other possibilities!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Oh, and lest we forget, he discerned River was in danger from... spelling mistakes in her letters. I doubt an ISTJ (or an ISFJ *looks pointedly at Kalach*) would look at that and go "they must be torturing her!"
    What, inferior Ne doesn't seek out worst case scenarios?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #106
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Operative: Inferior.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  7. #107
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It indicates reliance on structured authority--the book. Do we know if Simon thought his sister's anaylses dumb? Too dumb to trust if they contradicted Teh Rulez? Si and/or considerable non-indulgence in intuition, and not even immature Te because then he would have argued about the book, not switched the topic to something people pleasing.
    You mean switching to playing make-believe in order to take a break from writing a taxing, long-winded analysis?

    River isn't F either.

    I haven't yet met an INTJ who wasn't willing to put his or her own opinions about right and wrong on hold in order to succeed - and that's what you have to do in order to get a good grade on an essay. Especially in a totalitarian regime like the Alliance.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  8. #108
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blairvoyant View Post
    You mean switching to playing make-believe in order to take a break from writing a taxing, long-winded analysis?
    There's an INTJ who would take a break from taxing, long-winded analysis?

    River isn't F either.
    The argument for "F" is that she got altered by the government. As a precocious kid she was T. And my only real argument for INFJ is post-government intervention she seems to speak Ni. This is a mostly shallow analysis and I don't know what type she's supposed to be.

    I haven't yet met an INTJ who wasn't willing to put his or her own opinions about right and wrong on hold in order to succeed - and that's what you have to do in order to get a good grade on an essay. Especially in a totalitarian regime like the Alliance.
    Slanderz! Liez! Untruths!

    And fabulous misrepresentations of introverted feeling. I've yet to meet an INTJ who can for any length of time persist with untruths he knows are untrue. It upsets them. And they start searching for some authority to announce the untruth to and have it acknowledged as untrue. (Or they count themselves as the authority and start working against the untruth.) People who rely on introverted intuition do NOT tolerate misrepresentations in the outside world--such conditions undermine their basic ability to function by reducing what they can reliably speculate upon.

    Viz me arguing about Simon's type. Can't let it alone until an external determination has been made for what is an INTJ and what is an ISFJ.

    External judgment!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Operative: Inferior.
    Yeah, so likely to be unconscious and deeply troubling, and NOT actually up to discovering the code, like say the intuition of an Ni dominant would be.

    "I think there's a code"--think? And hey, Ma n Pa, help me, yo. An INTJ's going to say I think there's a code? And seek parental confirmation?




    As positions on this matter solidify, time out should be taken to consider the role of types in fiction. The writes aim for one thing, the actors bring another thing, the viewer sees a third... and the whole thing is amenable to some kind of synthesis into,,, um, art and understanding or something. The essence of the character as opposed to the details of the scenes. But can one separate essence from detail? And how does this relate to typing people in real life. What level of personality does a character in art represent? Or should they represent?

    Etc.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #109
    Senior Thread Terminator Aerithria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Now this isn't a retarded argument like Kalach's was.

    But it's still wrong. Simon spent a full year planning River's escape, had several contingencies ready (which he had to use), and did know what to do afterwards: Cryogenically freeze her, then hide out in the outer planets. But... then happened something he didn't expect (that one missed detail that unravels the evil villain's plan ): she woke up and the crew of the ship he boarded raised a ruckus, fucking up his plans (halfway anyway, he did ultimately end up hiding out on the edges of the galaxy, on the move, aboard Serenity).

    Oh, and lest we forget, he discerned River was in danger from... spelling mistakes in her letters. I doubt an ISTJ (or an ISFJ *looks pointedly at Kalach*) would look at that and go "they must be torturing her!"
    He knows her writing so well that the details are what tips him off. I'm not saying an INTJ couldn't come to a similar conclusion, but half the time Ni tends to skim things and fill in the blanks themselves, which means he easily could've missed half the signs and attributed the rest as merely odd. Dominant Si coupled with inferior Ne is actually a pretty good basis for paranoia, regardless of its validity. (Another example: I have an ISFJ friend who takes any noticeable detail that her boyfriend is upset and tends to infer that he's planning on breaking up with her. Si/Ne is really good at that kind of thinking, accurate or not.)

    Also, Simon spent two years trying to free River, and failed each time until someone from the outside contacted him, said that they could rescue her, and he paid them to do so. Any type could've completed that plan with ease. As there wasn't much explanations as to how he tried to free her before this, that particular plan cannot be used to determine his type. The only other plan of his we see is the Ariel plot, which again is detailed to the point of perfection, very Si-oriented.

    And, re-watching Safe, I have to agree with Kalach. An INTJ wouldn't seek confirmation regarding something they know is true.
    Last edited by Aerithria; 06-24-2010 at 03:23 AM.
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  10. #110
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    On the other hand, Simon may have been pragmatically moving toward solution: let the parents confirm that there was a problem and then they, with their superior access to authority and means, would make everything right in the terrible world. Maybe he was too young to know that he didn't have to be so ineffectual.

    The real issue I have with Simon is he's so prissy. Priggishness I can tolerate as an INTJ characteristic. But INTJ as prissy? I am aware that there's not that much of a difference in definition between prissy and priggish, but the one, prissy, that Simon flounces about being, strikes me as far too ineffectual to be borne of extraverted thinking.

    It's like sassy. Any sassy INTJs out there? Morbid, awkward, and earnestly inappropriate, yes--but sassy? Or prissy? Or ISFJ?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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