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Thread: Machiavelli

  1. #11
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    The Prince is one of my favourite books of all time. But I'd have to read over it again to decide whether or not I'd actually use any of his methods while in power.

    I personally think XNTJ.

  2. #12
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    having read the prince and discourses i say almost definitely a xNTP. i lean toward INTP but it could go either way. he was essentially a political adviser for most of his career until the people he advised were conquered and he was exiled. during this exile he lived on a farm he inheirited and in his free time he wrote. of course, he wasn't toiling just for the sake of toiling, but rather w/ the hopes of one day giving these documents to the current leaders of the republic from which he was exiled. the goal being to return to their good favor w/ possiblility of a job offer.

    but anyways, the way he reasons just seems very Ti to me. very subtle logic. he'll start w/ a vague concept and explore the most important possibilities weighing the benefits and pitfalls of each. sort of poking and proding until he's satisfied he's covered all probable circumstances and outcomes. any given path is only greater than another based on the desired outcome.

    another way of putting it is he creates a logical framework for politicians to work w/in. this is something that is at the very heart of what Ti dominant people do. or if that's not entirely clear reading these two pages i think clears up the difference between INTPs and INTJs in terms of how they think and how they solve problems.

    so there's my rationale... take it or leave it.

    ps: the prince was the book directed more towards a specific person/group of people so, machiavelli took on their situation and goals (royalty looking to secure their power and expand their land by whatever means available) as the intended reader's point of view for the material. that's why that book comes across as very ruthless. if you read the book closely though you see some of his true ideas for what a republic should be. basically an example of what i'm talking would go like...

    "so, that is how you rule by fear rather than love. the methods i have just described are not sustainable in the long run but that's how you would do and keep it going as long as possible if you wanted to."

    for a better idea of what he thought was ideal, read discourses on livy.

  3. #13
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Definitely! Alot of his perspectives distourb me from an ethical point of view, however they are logically correct. I still can't bring myself to follow most of what he says. I just don't like it. You know... I would rather have integrity, be honest and blunt rather than have power and have to manage my image and what I say.

    I'm not interested in power. I'm interested in improving the external environment. Unfortunately, they often go hand in hand... But I just cannot play by Machiavelli's rules. In fact, I am brutally honest to the point where it is socially stupid. And I realize it but can't help it...
    i kinda put this in the post i made just now, but try not to think of what he said in the prince and his end-all-be-all guide to leadership/power/government. think of it more as a "if you want to rule this way, here's how you would do it." he shows the strengths and weaknesses of that way of doing things and how to handle them. that doesn't mean he necessarily thinks of that as the best way to do things.

    read discourses on livy to get a much better idea on how machiavelli thought we should be rule/be ruled.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    i kinda put this in the post i made just now, but try not to think of what he said in the prince and his end-all-be-all guide to leadership/power/government. think of it more as a "if you want to rule this way, here's how you would do it." he shows the strengths and weaknesses of that way of doing things and how to handle them. that doesn't mean he necessarily thinks of that as the best way to do things.

    read discourses on livy to get a much better idea on how machiavelli thought we should be rule/be ruled.
    Interesting. I did not think of him that way. Objectively speaking, I agree with your point. From a purely value base, I am wary that a book such as the Prince can give the wrong ideas to the wrong people.

  5. #15
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    ENTP.


    Frankly, I'm surprised this is even up for debate.

  6. #16
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    I wonder how much of a leaning he had between T and F? I've always found myself agreeing with his observations and the way that he creates strategies. Especially when understanding the emotional weaknesses of others for exploitation. When you "read" someone, you see their weaknesses just as much as their strengths and good qualities, my values prevent me from taking advantage of any negative insight to harm. Could our great Prince have had some ENFP in him? The "gone bad" kind?

  7. #17
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    Machiavelli was Te dominant:

    "A prince should therefore have no other aim or thought, nor take up any other thing for his study, but war and its organization and discipline, for that is the only art that is necessary to one who commands"...

    "you will always need the favour of the inhabitants to take possession of a province"...

    "he must arrange to commit all his cruelties at once, so as not to have to recur to them every day, and so as to be able... to reassure people and win them over by benefitting them."

    Setting these kinds of rules is also a distinct J behavior, he does not want the Prince to go with the flow, he wants the Prince to strictly adhere to the rules he establishes. He is making Objective statements about Objectively received information, he is just simply saying things how they are with no subjective insight on the objective information (which you would expect of Ti).

    He is also clearly developing an abstract theory or model of what a Prince should be like, but it still has its roots in practicality, this displays N but not N dominance, because N dominance would be less concerned with practicality.

    His prime motive in writing The Prince was to encourage Lorenzo the Magnificent to unite Italy, he hoped that he would use his advice to liberate Italy as an Italian nation-state and to drive away the many foreign invaders. This is clearly an Extraverted goal.

    It is clear that Machiavelli was an ENTJ after some analysis.

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