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  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillwater View Post
    I think my big question about this type of argument is why are INTx's always robbed of their "thing" so to speak, their mode of being? Everybody seems to want a piece of the intelligence pie to claim as their own, but they won't give up the piece of pie already on their plate. The idea really isn�t farfetched that a preference for a pervasive manner of viewing and understanding the world framed through thought and analysis would lead to ability in those areas. I would hope all types are good at the mode in which the most commonly approach life. But what is farfetched is the idea that someone who had processed most of their life this way would suck at it. There seems to be something in the word intelligence that brings out the worst greed in people. People want to claim it for their own or tarnish it so it�s not worth as much. How often does the debate turn into how intelligence or intellect is defined and whether or not the tests based off of the definitions are biased towards certain groups? People know intelligence in real life when they encounter it. Just like they know a genuinely kind soul or someone with great humor, but there is a different premium put on the word intelligence that seems to damn any conversation that makes mention of it.

    Essentially, no one wants to say that they�re not intelligent. The problem is in the word. People will admit to being poor at relationships, chronically clumsy, easily emotionally distressed, easily distracted, bad at art and even not creative�but no one wants to be called stupid. If there was a way to express the mental processing that NT�s do without invoking the connotations that tinge every discussion of it that would be great. But at present there isn�t. There is an incompatibility of terminology that may be superficial or it may be pervasive in its reach, but until the language changes the debate and arguments will rage. But for the record, whatever NT�s have should not be claimed or found meritless by someone else at a whim. It took a lot of time to develop that (for which many of the experiences were unpleasant). Likewise, the same can be said for the mental processes of the other types and groupings. It is somewhat insulting to say that it's a lie that someone is good at what they've practiced their whole life--it negates what they feel they can offer others.
    Ive always seen it the same way, and this forum has supported my thoughts in one way or another from all Ive read.

  2. #782
    Tragically Unhip Pandemeria's Avatar
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    There's gotta be some truth to the INTJ-intelligence debate in favour of the stereotype. If we're talking about high g, meaning a good score in a variety of fields, as opposed to one field (such as visual-spatial intelligence alone), then it's highly likely that an INTJ will have high g.

    This study https://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/A...ed/IQP_JMW.pdf correlated IJ personality dimensions with higher academic achievement.

    This study http://uk.psytech.com/wp-content/upl...2009-08-11.pdf noted that the biggest determining factor in intelligence was the S-N dimension, in favour of N, followed by E-I, favouring I.

    This study also correlates intelligence with introversion in gifted teenagers. Slightly over half of the sample preferred Thinking over Feeling as well, giving Thinking an edge. A Synthesis of Research on Psychological Types of Gifted Adolescents « SENG

    So yes, it's not a myth, folks. There's more than a little truth to that assumption.

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  3. #783
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandemeria View Post
    So yes, it's not a myth, folks. There's more than a little truth to that assumption.
    Most stereotypes have some basis in facts, though by nature they seem to be taken too far.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #784
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Most stereotypes have some basis in facts, though by nature they seem to be taken too far.
    Stereotypes are not a problem because they are false, they are a problem because they are always an incomplete truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Stereotypes are not a problem because they are false, they are a problem because they are always an incomplete truth.
    Agreed; there's always a little grain of truth in them somewhere. It's important to verify the true facts in the face of a stereotype.

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  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Most stereotypes have some basis in facts, though by nature they seem to be taken too far.
    I'm definitely in agreement there. The human brain is lazy and likes to over simplify the world.

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  7. #787
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandemeria View Post
    I'm definitely in agreement there. The human brain is lazy and likes to over simplify the world.
    Sort of like assuming the cow is a sphere?

    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #788
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandemeria View Post
    There's gotta be some truth to the INTJ-intelligence debate in favour of the stereotype. If we're talking about high g, meaning a good score in a variety of fields, as opposed to one field (such as visual-spatial intelligence alone), then it's highly likely that an INTJ will have high g.

    This study https://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/A...ed/IQP_JMW.pdf correlated IJ personality dimensions with higher academic achievement.

    This study http://uk.psytech.com/wp-content/upl...2009-08-11.pdf noted that the biggest determining factor in intelligence was the S-N dimension, in favour of N, followed by E-I, favouring I.

    This study also correlates intelligence with introversion in gifted teenagers. Slightly over half of the sample preferred Thinking over Feeling as well, giving Thinking an edge. A Synthesis of Research on Psychological Types of Gifted Adolescents « SENG

    So yes, it's not a myth, folks. There's more than a little truth to that assumption.
    Im not saying that IQ is irrelevant when it comes to intelligence that relates to real world, but its just a test and it only measures how well you score on the test.

    Like few days ago there was me(no higher education, but i like to learn random stuff), an ENTP(graduated from college combining computer sciences as well as other stuff) and INTJ(studied computer sciences few years ago, quit and now recently started it again). ENTP tried to explain to INTJ about XOR and how it can be used to crypt stuff in a way that would make it impossible for people to decrypt it. Then gave an example that if i were to send a message to a russian spy intending to assassinate someone on my command and the command was xor'ed, it would be impossible for anyone to decrypt it. I instantly figured out why it cant be decrypted and why less 0's and 1's means that its even harder to decrypt. INTJ thought about it a second and came to a conclusion that it can be decrypted by using entropic principle(basically running random number generator and using entropy to determine whether the xor'ed message is actually random or if it has some message in it), while being pretty genius idea(ill give you that. i dont think many would figure something like this out), i instantly saw why it wouldnt work and so did the ENTP. We both spent like 2 hours trying to explain it to the INTJ(explaining basics of crypting/decrypting, drawing illustrations on paper, giving examples of 4 digit xor'ed message, like 0100 and explaining that it cant be even determined if its random or not), but the INTJ just insisted that we dont get the entropic principle and that it can be used to decrypt anything. I was like "why on earth doesent he get it, this is a simple thing and he is smart..". Then when i figured that the problem why the INTJ didnt get it was that in order to use the entropic principle decoding this, it would require comparing all the random images coming from our universe to the xor'ed message in order to determine whether or not the xor'ed message has any message in it or if its just random, even then the chances that its not random vs is random is really really small(especially when dealing with a short message) and therefore it would be practically impossible to decode it, even tho it might be possible in theory to determine with low accuracy that the message was a message and not just random, and even then they wouldnt be able to figure if one 1 means yes or no, so the message still would remain hidden(unless ofc you study the random images enough to determine impossibly much from our universe, like who sends the message and why..). Then it dawned on the INTJ. During the argument i tried to explain many times that what the INTJ is suggesting doesent work in the real world and especially not in the situation which we were discussing, but all of the real life if's and then's were disregarded in INTJs mind and he worked the problem as if the world was ideal and he had all the time and info possible.
    And this isnt the first time something like this happened, something really simple for me(which i can figure near instantly) just being too much for INTJ to figure out. And all the if's and then's were clearly pointed out in the beginning and repeated over and over again during the 2 hours of arguing.
    I should also mention that the INTJ has bit over 10 points higher IQ than i do, but it didnt seem to do much good here, because fundamentally the reason why INTJ wasnt able to figure it out faster after the explanations was that he was too stuck in his own ideas and ideals that he failed to see the real world applications or even listen properly what he was said to(again because of being so stuck in his own ideas). While i just listened to the if's and then's and figured it out immediately, even tho i wasnt even aware of xor'ing before, but it was logical, so it was easy.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  9. #789
    Tragically Unhip Pandemeria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Im not saying that IQ is irrelevant when it comes to intelligence that relates to real world, but its just a test and it only measures how well you score on the test.

    Like few days ago there was me(no higher education, but i like to learn random stuff), an ENTP(graduated from college combining computer sciences as well as other stuff) and INTJ(studied computer sciences few years ago, quit and now recently started it again). ENTP tried to explain to INTJ about XOR and how it can be used to crypt stuff in a way that would make it impossible for people to decrypt it. Then gave an example that if i were to send a message to a russian spy intending to assassinate someone on my command and the command was xor'ed, it would be impossible for anyone to decrypt it. I instantly figured out why it cant be decrypted and why less 0's and 1's means that its even harder to decrypt. INTJ thought about it a second and came to a conclusion that it can be decrypted by using entropic principle(basically running random number generator and using entropy to determine whether the xor'ed message is actually random or if it has some message in it), while being pretty genius idea(ill give you that. i dont think many would figure something like this out), i instantly saw why it wouldnt work and so did the ENTP. We both spent like 2 hours trying to explain it to the INTJ(explaining basics of crypting/decrypting, drawing illustrations on paper, giving examples of 4 digit xor'ed message, like 0100 and explaining that it cant be even determined if its random or not), but the INTJ just insisted that we dont get the entropic principle and that it can be used to decrypt anything. I was like "why on earth doesent he get it, this is a simple thing and he is smart..". Then when i figured that the problem why the INTJ didnt get it was that in order to use the entropic principle decoding this, it would require comparing all the random images coming from our universe to the xor'ed message in order to determine whether or not the xor'ed message has any message in it or if its just random, even then the chances that its not random vs is random is really really small(especially when dealing with a short message) and therefore it would be practically impossible to decode it, even tho it might be possible in theory to determine with low accuracy that the message was a message and not just random, and even then they wouldnt be able to figure if one 1 means yes or no, so the message still would remain hidden(unless ofc you study the random images enough to determine impossibly much from our universe, like who sends the message and why..). Then it dawned on the INTJ. During the argument i tried to explain many times that what the INTJ is suggesting doesent work in the real world and especially not in the situation which we were discussing, but all of the real life if's and then's were disregarded in INTJs mind and he worked the problem as if the world was ideal and he had all the time and info possible.
    And this isnt the first time something like this happened, something really simple for me(which i can figure near instantly) just being too much for INTJ to figure out. And all the if's and then's were clearly pointed out in the beginning and repeated over and over again during the 2 hours of arguing.
    I should also mention that the INTJ has bit over 10 points higher IQ than i do, but it didnt seem to do much good here, because fundamentally the reason why INTJ wasnt able to figure it out faster after the explanations was that he was too stuck in his own ideas and ideals that he failed to see the real world applications or even listen properly what he was said to(again because of being so stuck in his own ideas). While i just listened to the if's and then's and figured it out immediately, even tho i wasnt even aware of xor'ing before, but it was logical, so it was easy.
    Interesting. It seems that some concepts are easier for certain people to grasp than they are for others.

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  10. #790
    Tragically Unhip Pandemeria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sort of like assuming the cow is a sphere?

    ...Or that the world has an edge that you could fall from. Those seafaring explorers must have been terrified in the past!

    Also, that is a cute cow.

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