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  1. #191
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, let's hope you're not just appeasing me with Fe on that one.

    I hope that's an Fi conviction.
    Nope, it's most definitely an Fi conviction.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #192
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post


    Fe, which I have plenty of because I am an Feeler, through and through, is pleasant when it's supporting a good cause, and deleterious when it is used to accomodate, allow, encourage, and or promote bad things for the sake of "peace".

    To appease others in order to avoid conflict, or confrontation of the truth "behind" the current feelings/scene is the easy way out.

    It temporarily works, but ultimately perpetuates the underlying problem.
    Problem: Deciding what counts as a "good cause" or a "bad thing" requires an Fi value judgment. This shows absolutely no evidence of Fe; in fact, all you've done with this post is declare implicitly that Fe is and should always be subservient to your Fi values.

    You literally just said: "Fe is great as long as it doesn't get in the way of Fi--if it does that, then it's bad." You've done nothing but restate the case for Fi's superiority.

    Being a Feeler in no way guarantees proficiency in Fe. As uumlau notes:

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    Fe's feelings are shared: feelings are precisely how you connect with other people. If you're not sharing your feelings, if you do not adjust your feelings to accomodate others, you're being selfish.
    Note the bolded part--and its direct contradiction of Fi's most important values.

    You don't have "plenty of Fe" by any stretch of the imagination. If you did, you wouldn't allow your Fi-driven value judgments of "good causes" and "bad things" to supersede Fe's emphasis on accommodation of your feelings to those of others.

    In order to have "plenty of Fe", you need to be able to set aside your own feelings in favor of accommodating those of others. By declaring that Fe is great as long as it doesn't require you to compromise your Fi values, you've completely nullified any possible use of Fe in the first place and revealed that Fi is dramatically more important to you.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder.
    I think a lot of this could have been avoided if you'd used quotes around this "Selfishness".

    While you did so earlier in your post, even I read this as a little bit of backtracking away from uumlau's ultimate conclusion:

    So it really isn't selfishness, on the part of Ti or Fi. Selfishness is solely an issue of maturity, and this forum in particular has a bad habit of blaming immature behavior on types. The type only gives a basic indication of how immaturity will typically be expressed, it isn't the source of the immaturity.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You don't have "plenty of Fe" by any stretch of the imagination. If you did, you wouldn't allow your Fi-driven value judgments of "good causes" and "bad things" to supersede Fe's emphasis on accommodation of your feelings to those of others.

    In order to have "plenty of Fe", you need to be able to set aside your own feelings in favor of accommodating those of others. By declaring that Fe is great as long as it doesn't require you to compromise your Fi values, you've completely nullified any possible use of Fe in the first place and revealed that Fi is dramatically more important to you.
    Plenty is an absolute term, not a comparative one.

    She didn't say she had more Fe than Fi, which is really what ^ is pointing to.

  5. #195
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think a lot of this could have been avoided if you'd used quotes around this "Selfishness".

    While you did so earlier in your post, even I read this as a little bit of backtracking away from uumlau's ultimate conclusion:
    The idea that selfishness is relative to one's perspective seems central to uumlau's point. He's saying that neither Fi nor Ti is truly objectively selfish on its own, just that Fi seems selfish to Ti and vice versa.

    How does this diverge from his conclusion?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Plenty is an absolute term, not a comparative one.

    She didn't say she had more Fe than Fi, which is really what ^ is pointing to.
    It seems to me that, since Fe values accommodating the feelings of others by altering its own, someone with "plenty of Fe" should be able to understand quite easily how Fi might be perceived as selfish (even if such a perception is ultimately erroneous or incomplete.)

    But she didn't say, "While I value Fi more highly than Fe, I can see why people who emphasize Fe more might come to view Fi as selfish."

    She just asked how on earth anyone could possibly see Fi as selfish. I would think someone with a good understanding of Fe would be able to understand how this position comes about, even if she doesn't agree with it.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #196
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    And Sim, you didn't respond to my very serious argument that truly cuts to the heart of this issue:

    I think they just feel it's selfish because we won't engage in their Fe cuddlefests...

  7. #197
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Selfishness is relative depending on one's perspective
    Um, k....

    This sentence evokes so many memories and thoughts that I feel overwhelmed.

    Selfishness exists, it is a part of human nature, some forms of which are not even Bad, but Good.

    However, altruism exists, too.

    We are a social species, we are cooperative, empathetic, and we generally care about our species, hence us even having the means to communicate on this forum.

    Why do people write?

    Why do scientists share their theories?

    Why do we help the sick and the old?

    Because, we are human beings, and we therefore care for human beings.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    The idea that selfishness is relative to one's perspective seems central to uumlau's point. He's saying that neither Fi nor Ti is truly objectively selfish on its own, just that Fi seems selfish to Ti and vice versa.

    How does this diverge from his conclusion?
    Because I disagree that his point was that selfishness is relative to one's perspective.

    Selfishness is selfishness; perceived selfishness is perceived selfishness.

    His point is that the perception of selfishness is often a problem due to differing type's functions conflicting with one another.

    I think uumlau concludes that people on this forum are constantly calling other types' behavior selfish, when, in fact, they are merely having a conflict due to differing type functions, and that using the term "selfishness" in this case is a misnomer and problematic.

    That, ultimately, true selfishness is caused by immaturity, not type.

    That is why it's important to use quotes around the term (when you're talking about the kind of "selfishness" that is being perceived not due to immaturity, but due to type difference.

    And that's why you used them in the first place.

  9. #199
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And Sim, you didn't respond to my very serious argument that truly cuts to the heart of this issue:



    Cuddling is good for the soul. It's science! btw, edited above post if you care to respond to the latter section.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Because I disagree that his point was that selfishness is relative.

    His point is that the perception of selfishness is often a problem due to differing type's functions.

    I think uumlau concludes that people on this forum are constantly calling other types' behavior selfish, when, in fact, it is immaturity that breeds selfishness, not type.

    That is why it's important to use quotes around the term.

    And that's why you used them in the first place.
    Well, okay, but wouldn't differing perceptions of selfishness + the fact that neither is objectively correct imply that perception of selfishness is relative?


    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Um, k....

    This sentence evokes so many memories and thoughts that I feel overwhelmed.

    Selfishness exists, it is a part of human nature, some forms of which are not even Bad, but Good.

    However, altruism exists, too.

    We are a social species, we are cooperative, empathetic, and we generally care about our species, hence us even having the means to communicate on this forum.

    Why do people write?

    Why do scientists share their theories?

    Why do we help the sick and the old?

    Because, we are human beings, and we therefore care for human beings.
    What is the relevance here? What point are you trying to make in relation to what we were talking about?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #200
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    Sorry, Sim, edited that post like 1,000 times before I just finished.

    (that's how I roll)

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