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  1. #181
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Can we define selfish, here, please!!!

    How is being cognizant of, and accountable for your feelings and opinions selfish!?!?

    I don't bend my values to accomodate others, or myself.

    I know when I am being a shithead, and I know when others are being shitheads, and furthermore, I will concede and reconcile if I end up mistakenly viewing someone as a shithead when in fact they were/are not.

    Being self-aware, introspective and idealistic does not make you selfish.

    Human nature does.

    My and most other Fi-users feel/use/integrate empathy in our global perspectives as well as in our intimate spheres, so much so that it truly baffles me to think/imagine, a healthy Fi user being categorized as selfish.

    I think this adage is pretty fitting in describing an aspect of Fi,

    "Know one's owns roots to embrace others"
    Wow, an Fi user is baffled at how anyone could consider Fi users selfish. Astonishing.

    There's a reason I put "selfish" in quotes in my post.

    Reread these sections of uumalu's explanation:

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    Fe/Ti tries to communicate with Fi, but can get stuck on this selfishness crosstalk. Fe's feelings are shared: feelings are precisely how you connect with other people. If you're not sharing your feelings, if you do not adjust your feelings to accomodate others, you're being selfish. But remember, this is all because Fe is a primary communication tool: by hiding one's own feelings, by not adjusting one's own feelings in response to others, of course it looks selfish to Fe.
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    However, the same thing is true between Te and Ti. When I talk with someone using Te, there is a free flow of ideas. The ideas change and alter on the fly, we work together to develop new ideas, to share ideas. We connect and communicate via ideas. Enter the Ti user, who alternately seems like a brick wall, black hole, or source of technically correct and accurate but useless and noncommunicative information (think Microsoft Technical Support). With Te, I can't tell a Ti user a damn thing. I present ideas to the Ti user, who only procedes to pick them apart, accuse me of being inconsistant or incomplete or shallow. In the meantime, I hardly get any clue what the Ti user thinks. I get no "hooks" with which to show him where he might have some bad assumptions. He rejects my ideas based on his bad assumptions, and keeps on saying things like, "I don't understand how that could be true," and leaving me without a clue on which stupid idea he has in his head that makes him possibly think it couldn't be true. Why? Because he has to figure it all out for himself, selfish bastard. He can't trust even for a moment that I might be correct.
    Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #182
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Fi truth can eventually be proven objectively or empirically, it just takes more time.

    I've gotta gut feeling...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

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  3. #183
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Wow, an Fi user is baffled at how anyone could consider Fi users selfish. Astonishing.
    Jesus christ, man.

    Stop putting me in a fuckin' sealed box, and READ MY FUCKING WORDS.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #184
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Jesus christ, man.

    Stop putting me in a fuckin' sealed box, and READ MY FUCKING WORDS.
    I did read your words, and I responded by quoting the parts of uumlau's post that have already fully explained your concern.

    If you'd read it already, you wouldn't be wondering about how the word "selfish" is used in this context, and you'd probably understand how the Ti+Fe perspective comes to view Fi as selfish.

    You'd also probably understand how the Fi+Te perspective comes to view Ti as similarly selfish, and how both perspectives are ultimately relative.

    Instead of reading uumlau's synthesis of the two perspectives, you just blurted out "OMG HOW COULD Fi EVER BEEN SEEN AS SELFISH????", which you'd already know if you'd actually read his post.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #185
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder.
    No.

    If you don't see/understand how some people are more innately selfish than others, I don't know what to say.

    If you can't comprehend when you are acting in a particularly selfish manner, rather than in a less selfish manner, again, I don't know what to say.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  6. #186
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I did read your words, and I responded by quoting the parts of uumlau's post that have already fully explained your concern.
    My apologies, you edited your post after I responded to it.

    You and I both know what your original post was, in fact, I quoted it in its, then, entirety.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #187
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    No.

    If you don't see/understand how some people are more innately selfish than others, I don't know what to say.

    If you can't comprehend when you are acting in a particularly selfish manner, rather than in a less selfish manner, again, I don't know what to say.
    Translation: "If you don't agree with the Fi+Te conception of selfishness, there's clearly something wrong with your perspective." sigh.

    So your response to the idea that Fi+Te and Ti+Fe both have a limited perspective on selfishness that is biased by their own cognitive priorities is simply, "NUH UH THE Fi IDEA OF SELFISHNESS IS OBJECTIVELY RIGHT!!!"?

    Great. Score one for inter-type communication.

    I think uumlau's explanation is dead on. Selfishness is relative depending on one's perspective. Te sees Ti as selfish for its uncompromising treatment of ideas, and Fe sees Fi as selfish for its uncompromising treatment of feelings.

    This is a really big idea that could potentially do a lot in terms of bridging the gigantic Fi+Te vs. Ti+Fe communication gap.

    But instead of considering that, you seem more interested in simply declaring that your perception of selfishness is clearly the "correct" one.

    This doesn't strike me as very productive. In fact, it almost seems a little...selfish?


    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    My apologies, you edited your post after I responded to it.

    You and I both know what your original post was, in fact, I quoted it in its, then, entirety.
    The information had already been provided in its full text twice in this very thread. If you had read it before posting, you wouldn't need to ask how anyone could ever possibly view Fi as selfish.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #188
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think they just feel it's selfish because we won't engage in their Fe cuddlefests...


    Fe, which I have plenty of because I am an Feeler, through and through, is pleasant when it's supporting a good cause, and deleterious when it is used to accomodate, allow, encourage, and or promote bad things for the sake of "peace".

    To appease others in order to avoid conflict, or confrontation of the truth "behind" the current feelings/scene is the easy way out.

    It temporarily works, but ultimately perpetuates the underlying problem.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post


    Fe, which I have plenty of because I am an Feeler, through and through, is pleasant when it's supporting a good cause, and deleterious when it is used to accomodate, allow, encourage, and or promote bad things for the sake of "peace".

    To appease others in order to avoid conflict, or confrontation of the truth "behind" the current feelings/scene is the easy way out.

    It temporarily works, but ultimately perpetuates the underlying problem.
    Well, let's hope you're not just appeasing me with Fe on that one.

    I hope that's an Fi conviction.

  10. #190
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Empathic concern may produce an altruistic motivation to reduce the other person's distress.[12] The challenge of demonstrating the existence of altruistic motivation is to show how empathic concern leads to helping in ways that cannot be explained by prevailing theories of egoistic motivation. That is, a clear case needs to be made that it is concern about the other person's welfare, not a desire to improve one's own welfare, that primarily drives one's helping behavior in a particular situation.

    Empirical studies conducted by social psychologist Daniel Batson has demonstrated that empathic concern is felt when one adopts the perspective of another person in need. His work emphasizes the different emotions evoked when imagining another situation from a self-perspective or imagining from another perspective.[13] The former is often associated with personal distress (i.e., feelings of discomfort and anxiety), whereas the latter leads to empathic concern.
    Empathic concern - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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