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  1. #171
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Not sure whether everyone has seen this already, but I thought uumlau did a good job wrapping this whole topic up:
    He certainly does make a compelling point. Do you think it is Te/Fi-Fe/Ti that actually causes the disputing, or might it be something different, like Ne and Ni?

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    He certainly does make a compelling point. Do you think it is Te/Fi-Fe/Ti that actually causes the disputing, or might it be something different, like Ne and Ni?
    Sorry, can't get into a full-blown discussion right now.

    I'm working while periodically checking TypeC...

    Another time, onemoretime. I promise.

    (Jag, don't be grumpy )

  3. #173
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Maybe not effective, but NTJs could get the efficiency award.
    fixed
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  4. #174
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Sorry, can't get into a full-blown discussion right now.

    I'm working while periodically checking TypeC...

    Another time, onemoretime. I promise.
    Good luck with all that.

  5. #175
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Yes. They smell like they were made in China. Totally fake.
    I almost want this explained... Almost.

    *Visions of lead paint and the Yellow River jockey for position*
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  6. #176
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Sure it does, to Fi-ers.

    And Fi smells selfish to us. What else is new?
    An ENTP worrying about being selfish.

  7. #177
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    An ENTP worrying about being selfish.

    benzoic sulfinide

  8. #178
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    An ENTP worrying about being selfish.
    As uumlau says: We're "selfish" only with ideas, not feelings. You guys are the ones who are "selfish" with feelings.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumalu
    uumlau:

    On your "weary Fi users thread" since it not only excludes SFPs, but also NTJs ...

    Fi is selfish, but what people often don't realize is that Ti is just as selfish. For shorthand, let us call the entities that Fi processes "feelings" and the entities that Ti processes "ideas."

    Fi users predominantly use Te, and Ti users predominantly use Fe. So Fi is selfish about feelings, but unselfish about ideas. Ti is selfish about ideas, but not selfish about feelings.

    For Fi users, it's about what I feel, what I feel, what I feel. For Ti users, it's all about what I think, what I think, what I think.

    Fe/Ti tries to communicate with Fi, but can get stuck on this selfishness crosstalk. Fe's feelings are shared: feelings are precisely how you connect with other people. If you're not sharing your feelings, if you do not adjust your feelings to accomodate others, you're being selfish. But remember, this is all because Fe is a primary communication tool: by hiding one's own feelings, by not adjusting one's own feelings in response to others, of course it looks selfish to Fe.

    However, the same thing is true between Te and Ti. When I talk with someone using Te, there is a free flow of ideas. The ideas change and alter on the fly, we work together to develop new ideas, to share ideas. We connect and communicate via ideas. Enter the Ti user, who alternately seems like a brick wall, black hole, or source of technically correct and accurate but useless and noncommunicative information (think Microsoft Technical Support). With Te, I can't tell a Ti user a damn thing. I present ideas to the Ti user, who only procedes to pick them apart, accuse me of being inconsistant or incomplete or shallow. In the meantime, I hardly get any clue what the Ti user thinks. I get no "hooks" with which to show him where he might have some bad assumptions. He rejects my ideas based on his bad assumptions, and keeps on saying things like, "I don't understand how that could be true," and leaving me without a clue on which stupid idea he has in his head that makes him possibly think it couldn't be true. Why? Because he has to figure it all out for himself, selfish bastard. He can't trust even for a moment that I might be correct.

    Thing is, though, that's just my impression. What really goes on is that he is self-doubting. He is unsure. But it's Ti, so he doesn't express it. He's Ti, so he has a lot of trouble expressing his confusion. If his ideas are wrong, then there is something seriously wrong with him, and he's going to take a long time to refigure them out.

    Now, reverse that, and that's how Fe/Ti views us. Their feelings aren't shallow, they just feel that way to us. They share and develop feelings together, with other people as a means of connecting, and Fi users refuse that connection, which hurts them. We reject their feelings (because we feel they're "forcing them on us"), and that hurts them. We wish them happiness and all sorts of abstract positive things, but we don't respond to their particular feelings, which hurts them.

    I think that Fe arrives at certain kinds of spiritual understanding faster than Fi. The understanding is shallower, perhaps, but it is no less true, and it is more than Fi immediately understands. However, when Fi arrives at the same understanding, it is much deeper, more thoroughly understood, and implies other truths of which Fe is not immediately aware. I base this off of the Te/Ti analogy: I understand what is true much faster your typical Ti user, which is great for problem solving, but the Ti user will develop a level of understanding I will rarely reach (I'm strong in Ti, but I use it to delve into particular topics, and only up to the point where I have enough info to go into Te mode again).

    The big difference between the Fi and Ti cases, though, is that Ti can eventually be translated into objective truth, through real life examples where experiment vindicates theory. Fi truths can't be proven, they can only be discovered for oneself. I can share a pic of hands holding a sun, and explain how that shows me so many truths about life, but other people either "get it" or not.

    So it really isn't selfishness, on the part of Ti or Fi. Selfishness is solely an issue of maturity, and this forum in particular has a bad habit of blaming immature behavior on types. The type only gives a basic indication of how immaturity will typically be expressed, it isn't the source of the immaturity.
    ^This is absolutely brilliant and the best description of this topic I've ever heard.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    He certainly does make a compelling point. Do you think it is Te/Fi-Fe/Ti that actually causes the disputing, or might it be something different, like Ne and Ni?
    Though I doubt that you care about my opinion and will probably find the very fact that I responded to your question at all rude and inappropriate:

    Conflicting Perceiving functions don't seem to cause nearly as many overt disputes as conflicting Judging functions.

    Note the vaunted ENTP+INFJ connection: Ne and Ni each seem to appreciate that the other has a certain insight that balances its blind spots, while sharing the preference for Ti+Fe decision-making facilitates relative ease of communication.

    It's forcing Ti+Fe types to work with Fi+Te types that seems to cause the most friction. Since Perceiving functions don't actually evaluate information, it's hard for them to conflict with each other without competing Judgment functions coming into play to create a dispute.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #179
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    As uumlau says: We're "selfish" only with ideas, not feelings. You guys are the ones who are "selfish" with feelings.




    ^This is absolutely brilliant and the best description of this topic I've ever heard.
    Can we define selfish, here, please!!!

    How is being cognizant of, and accountable for your feelings and opinions selfish!?!?

    I don't bend my values to accomodate others, or myself.

    I know when I am being a shithead, and I know when others are being shitheads, and furthermore, I will concede and reconcile if I end up mistakenly viewing someone as a shithead when in fact they were/are not.

    Being self-aware, introspective and idealistic does not make you selfish.

    Human nature does.

    My and most other Fi-users feel/use/integrate empathy in our global perspectives as well as in our intimate spheres, so much so that it truly baffles me to think/imagine, a healthy Fi user being categorized as selfish.

    I think this adage is pretty fitting in describing an aspect of Fi,

    "Know one's owns roots to embrace others"
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

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  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Can we define selfish, here, please!!!

    How is being cognizant of, and accountable for your feelings and opinions selfish!?!?

    I don't bend my values to accomodate others, or myself.

    I know when I am being a shithead, and I know when others are being shitheads, and furthermore, I will concede and reconcile if I end up mistakenly viewing someone as a shithead when in fact they were/are not.

    Being self-aware, introspective and idealistic does not make you selfish.

    Human nature does.

    My and most other Fi-users feel/use/integrate empathy in our global perspectives as well as in our intimate spheres, so much so that it truly baffles me to think/imagine, a healthy Fi user being categorized as selfish.

    I think this adage is pretty fitting in describing an aspect of Fi,

    "Know one's owns roots to embrace others"
    I think they just feel it's selfish because we won't engage in their Fe cuddlefests...

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