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View Poll Results: Are we over-assigning N to people here?

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  • Yes

    50 73.53%
  • No

    18 26.47%
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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    ^^ tis true.

    That process of speaking for everyone of a type distorts understanding quite a bit, I think. I have trouble bringing myself to declare one type because I find two pigeon holes provides a little more potential understanding than just one. That way the person reading a post can choose which set of stereotypes best apply to me at the time. I'm not sure people consciously realize just how much like clay a given post is which can be molded in their perceptions based on what type they think the person is and overlay all its accompanying stereotypes.

    I was in a debate months ago in which everything I said was in almost complete agreement with the position of someone who was an SJ. The individual we were debating against responded to the SJ post with comments like "typical Sensor", "reign in the Fe why don't you", etc. They responded positively to mine saying it was insightful and intuitive. In my estimation we were saying THE SAME THING. Perhaps I should have made a pointed issue out of it, but instead I saw it as a lost cause and left the thread not to return. It actually annoyed me quite a bit. Perceptions that are willfully distorted through a prejudicial lens can at times exasperate me, but it is something that must be let go of because what can change it? If there isn't a common reference point then there is no meeting ground to negotiate, grow, or increase understanding. Than again, that willful blindness is also part of reality and must be responded to in the most constructive way which in many cases is simply letting go.
    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    very well put.

    i can't help but give this issue weight when i think about how others come here when they are looking for answers because of someone they know or even themselves. to read and figure out their own type or another's, naturally using comparisons as one way.

    i'm reminded of it every time someone comes to these forums and asks for advice. it drives home, for me, just how much weight they put on what they read.

    ugh. it's like being unable to stop a teacher teaching a class of first graders that the world is flat.
    Thank you both.. What I have problems with sometimes is articulation or finding the "mot juste"..
    After reading both your posts I am happy to say I found it..

    The word is "Irresponsible" and that is why I become so upset.. because the described behavior is simply Irresponsible.

    Again I thank you both..

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    it really doesn't help when you become annoyed at people lumping ALL people of a certain letter together either... you just get stuck arguing with some silly kid who thinks that it's obviously true

    Luckily, I don't really MIND any of the other ESTPs here enough to be really irked by that!
    so true. i got over it by asking myself, "sooo, digest, do you plan on following every single post, 24 hours a day, for the rest of your life and then, of course, living forever? no? then let it go, girl." and, i replied, "*sigh* you are so right. once again!"
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  3. #103
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    That process of speaking for everyone of a type distorts understanding quite a bit, I think.
    i agree, but i also take as a foundation that thought and language and individual consciousness is itself a distortion. we're processing the information we have- but of course it is incomplete.

    i think that there is a fundamental tension between complete generalization and radical specificity. both can become absolutist, and in each case both provide a destruction of meaning.

    i like generalizations because they provide an overarching way to begin to view something (and because i'm Ni!- this is why young infjs get called vague and abstract in their writing!). when i stay only at that overarching level without finding substantiation, engaging the details, i impose a map of meaning that traps the particularities and forces them to conform in ways that erase and iron out their true nuance, that avoid the effort to finesse the differences.

    on the other hand, fear of generalizations disallows the type of meaning predicated on identity, on saying that two things are the same in such and such a way, that there is a unity that belongs to two things. without this we cannot connect a big picture, build larger scale models and representations of meaning, detect systemic patterns, assume ecological significance, etc.

    in either process the ability to scale, to move back and forth between larger more abstract topological visions and more substantiated ones, along with along both spaces room to breathe, is necessary in order to maintain accuracy and allow yourself the ability to gain feedback, revise your thinking system, and learn from other minds/maps/models of how the world works.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i agree, but i also take as a foundation that thought and language and individual consciousness is itself a distortion. we're processing the information we have- but of course it is incomplete.

    i think that there is a fundamental tension between complete generalization and radical specificity. both can become absolutist, and in each case both provide a destruction of meaning.

    i like generalizations because they provide an overarching way to begin to view something (and because i'm Ni!- this is why young infjs get called vague and abstract in their writing!). when i stay only at that overarching level without finding substantiation, engaging the details, i impose a map of meaning that traps the particularities and forces them to conform in ways that erase and iron out their true nuance, that avoid the effort to finesse the differences.

    on the other hand, fear of generalizations disallows the type of meaning predicated on identity, on saying that two things are the same in such and such a way, that there is a unity that belongs to two things. without this we cannot connect a big picture, build larger scale models and representations of meaning, detect systemic patterns, assume ecological significance, etc.

    in either process the ability to scale, to move back and forth between larger more abstract topological visions and more substantiated ones, along with along both spaces room to breathe, is necessary in order to maintain accuracy and allow yourself the ability to gain feedback, revise your thinking system, and learn from other minds/maps/models of how the world works.
    This works great until we start dealing with human beings.
    What appears on surface can seem so similar and yet have a completely different motivation or origin.
    One person's aggression is born out the need to control and it's purpose to establish dominance .. anothers is born out of fear and it purpose to preserve personal space.
    Both behaviors on the surface look exactly the same.

  5. #105
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    This works great until we start dealing with human beings.
    What appears on surface can seem so similar and yet have a completely different motivation or origin.
    One person's aggression is born out the need to control and it's purpose to establish dominance .. anothers is born out of fear and it purpose to preserve personal space.
    Both behaviors on the surface look exactly the same.
    i'm not sure what your referent "this" refers to, how you understand what i wrote, or what question you are trying to posit.

    i agree that behaviors can look similarly. and that on the surface much can look the same. i don't feel that i am looking on the surface. the generalizations i choose to adopt are the ones that i feel like provide coherency and meaning to human events, particularly motivations. i feel like they help me recognize differences more than they force me to avoid them. if i have to avoid them, i feel the cognitive dissonance, or, i feel the social dissonance associated with saying something in a way that others conflict with. that process involves both a communicative composition (ie an ability to materialize the model as you see it), and the fact that the model needs feedback in order to become more complex, nuanced, and accurate. bc it's a generalized model based on a small fraction of experience.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i'm not sure what your referent "this" refers to, how you understand what i wrote, or what question you are trying to posit.

    i agree that behaviors can look similarly. and that on the surface much can look the same. i don't feel that i am looking on the surface. the generalizations i choose to adopt are the ones that i feel like provide coherency and meaning to human events, particularly motivations. i feel like they help me recognize differences more than they force me to avoid them. if i have to avoid them, i feel the cognitive dissonance, or, i feel the social dissonance associated with saying something in a way that others conflict with. that process involves both a communicative composition (ie an ability to materialize the model as you see it), and the fact that the model needs feedback in order to become more complex, nuanced, and accurate. bc it's a generalized model based on a small fraction of experience.
    I guess what I am trying to say is.. people are unpredictable and everyone is unique .. So no matter how much you think you can identify "patterns" in their behavior and that these patterns qualify you to make generalizations based on "personal" observations .. someone, somewhere is going to prove the generalization wrong . So somewhere along the way the generalization breaks down and this corrupts all the data. In simple terms.. generalizations are faulty .. so any conclusion derived from them is also faulty.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    So somewhere along the way the generalization breaks down and this corrupts all the data. In simple terms.. generalizations are faulty .. so any conclusion derived from them is also faulty.
    i don't see an incomplete generalization as corrupting "all" the data. i see it as being incomplete, and needing space to evolve, adapt, etc. i see all processes as requiring space to learn, or they break down, lose contact with the actual conditions of life, and begin to assert dogmatically meaning that may change.

    at the same time, asserting that because something changes, or because we have incomplete knowledge, we can know nothing, seems to be a mistake of equal significance, dogmatism, extremism. it's also highly impractical. the ability to use modality successfully, assert likelihood while not being BLIND to feedback that tells you otherwise, is about as good as it gets. you can't avoid being wrong, you can only avoid not learning from your wrong and instead changing it in the future.

  8. #108
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    The things you guys are complaining about would be fit with that situation if he was actually talking about someone doing the same things.

    I don't disagree that people are lumped together.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i don't see an incomplete generalization as corrupting "all" the data. i see it as being incomplete, and needing space to evolve, adapt, etc. i see all processes as requiring space to learn, or they break down, lose contact with the actual conditions of life, and begin to assert dogmatically meaning that may change.

    at the same time, asserting that because something changes, or because we have incomplete knowledge, we can know nothing, seems to be a mistake of equal significance, dogmatism, extremism. it's also highly impractical. the ability to use modality successfully, assert likelihood while not being BLIND to feedback that tells you otherwise, is about as good as it gets. you can't avoid being wrong, you can only avoid not learning from your wrong and instead changing it in the future.
    I am pretty sure that is what I have been trying to say this whole time. I think we are coming to it from different angles. while you focus on the generalization, I focus on the wild card .. but it adds up to the same thing where I am standing.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurel View Post
    The things you guys are complaining about would be fit with that situation if he was actually talking about someone doing the same things.

    I don't disagree that people are lumped together.
    I see two people having a discussion.. and learning from each other.. or at least I am learning something..

    Where does the complaining come into play?

    Why do you interpret everything I say negatively??

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