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View Poll Results: I have good manners

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  • 1---I am a real dick

    1 1.35%
  • 2---I couldn't care less about manners

    3 4.05%
  • 3---I use manners when I want something

    3 4.05%
  • 4---I use manners around strangers most of the time

    10 13.51%
  • 5---I use manners when I have to, but I have to force it

    6 8.11%
  • 6---I am reasonably well-mannered

    27 36.49%
  • 7---I am better mannered than most of my friends

    2 2.70%
  • 8---I use manners with my friends, but not so much with my family

    4 5.41%
  • 9---I have really good manners and use them most of the time

    14 18.92%
  • 10--I am as well mannered as the queen of england

    4 5.41%
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Results 41 to 50 of 62

  1. #41
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Manners are relative, and saying that no one has any manners anymore is indicative of a dogmatic-Fe stance that refuses to adapt to changing circumstances and the cultural tide.

    That's my excuse, anyway.
    Actually I think there is some truth to the first sentence, manners depend on the culture. Germans appear rude to a lot of English people because we don't do the whole "How was your day?... yada yada... How are the kids?... blah blah" small talk thing. To us the English way of conversing appears hypocritical (Why do you ask a question if you don't even want to know the answer?) while to an English person we probably appear like we are missing some social graces. Also I frequently get from English people that I am a "truth-teller", basically another term for being frank or even rude, while I don't see myself as particularly outspoken. It's just that even after having lived in England since 2001 I still can't get over my roots, I am not going to say something that I don't mean just to make you feel happy, I would feel awful and like such a hypocrite and fake compliments have zero power in the long run.

  2. #42
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Expressing dislike "valiantly" is a nice quality for sure, until it doesn't turn to "fake expressions for the sake of a compromise". It's just that I don't see this problem expressed in the Op, or perhaps I don't see it as a problem - certainly not as important as a lack of honesty and concern. THAT is something we should talk about.
    So, there is a range of communication where manners could exist for you, but not when it borders on, or infringes on, truth?

    I'm not sure the bolded isn't sometimes a better route to take when your interaction is sparse or temporary. Isn't compromise good? It just means both sides don't get their way totally, and meet in the middle. Isn't meeting in the middle the best thing for society and getting along with people?

    Lack of honesty and concern for others is important, but is much much deeper an issue than having manners, or lack thereof (and beyond the scope of this thread, altho very thread-worthy). You can be a douchebag irl because you lack empathy for others (for whatever reasons) but I'd still like you to be nice to me if you bump into me in the grocery. You know?
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  3. #43
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I do think manners are lacking in people, but I don't think there is any one way to be well-mannered. To me, it's more of a principle: do your words and actions show a spirit of hospitality, kindness, generosity, respect, etc, towards your fellow human? I don't see a lot of that in people. It's the virtues behind manners that are lacking.

    Obviously, cultures and other contexts will make standards of manners differ, which is why I think it has to boil down to the motivation behind them. People may have used to follow set standards for manners, but there may have not been real feeling behind them, and I think that's why some people reject the notion of manners now as being "stuffy" or "fake".

    Personally, I am -or would be- oblivious to the manners in my environment if not for my ISFJ mom. I suppose everyone's mom teaches them these things, but she is especially sensitive to social etiquette. As long as I can be shown how something relates to a principle I value, then I can usually accept it; but I almost never accept that is the only way, as so much in life must be determined by the specific situation. It does frustrate me when people cannot see a genuine gesture because it does not follow a set of prescribed rules, or they get stuck on formalities over the underlying sentiment.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #44
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post

    I don't know about that.
    I just suppose that since manners aren't as much the done thing and aren't drilled in to children as much, whatever kindness you do come across might be more sincere than a kindness done through habit.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  5. #45
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    So, there is a range of communication where manners could exist for you, but not when it borders on, or infringes on, truth?
    Truth has value without manners, manners do not hold a value without truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Isn't compromise good? It just means both sides don't get their way totally, and meet in the middle.
    It's fine, really. Compromises are sometimes necessary, it's OK until there is no dishonesty involved. They are not always the most rewarding solution though, especially from a personal standpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    You can be a douchebag irl because you lack empathy for others (for whatever reasons) but I'd still like you to be nice to me if you bump into me in the grocery. You know?
    Sure, I understand this. I'm usually not bothered if somebody growls at me in the grocery (until he/she starts blaming me or something), but I understand that you are disturbed by these things. I just wanted to say - perhaps in an inappropriate manner? - that I do not consider this a "priority" on my list of "stupid things we do"

  6. #46
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    Actually I think there is some truth to the first sentence, manners depend on the culture. Germans appear rude to a lot of English people because we don't do the whole "How was your day?... yada yada... How are the kids?... blah blah" small talk thing. To us the English way of conversing appears hypocritical (Why do you ask a question if you don't even want to know the answer?) while to an English person we probably appear like we are missing some social graces. Also I frequently get from English people that I am a "truth-teller", basically another term for being frank or even rude, while I don't see myself as particularly outspoken. It's just that even after having lived in England since 2001 I still can't get over my roots, I am not going to say something that I don't mean just to make you feel happy, I would feel awful and like such a hypocrite and fake compliments have zero power in the long run.
    I think all infjs, and probably many others, don't like small talk. But intercultural manners is an interesting topic, for sure. I think you can still have manners if you come from different places. But it is more challenging probably if you want to fit in. Sorta like learning the language to make is easier, except learning the social etiquette a bit to make things smoother.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I do think manners are lacking in people, but I don't think there is any one way to be well-mannered. To me, it's more of a principle: do your words and actions show a spirit of hospitality, kindness, generosity, respect, etc, towards your fellow human? I don't see a lot of that in people. It's the virtues behind manners that are lacking.
    So, why do you think the virtues are lacking? What is causing/has caused this to be so? We used to have the virtues which inevitably led to using more manners? So now virtues are gone and no more manners?

    Obviously, cultures and other contexts will make standards of manners differ, which is why I think it has to boil down to the motivation behind them. People may have used to follow set standards for manners, but there may have not been real feeling behind them, and I think that's why some people reject the notion of manners now as being "stuffy" or "fake".
    So people today are just more 'real' and that's why manners are on the decrease? What about using others words that imply more meaning then, like decency or consideraton or compassion or empathy? Are people just as X (insert aforementioned word) as they always have been? Or are people not as X?


    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I just suppose that since manners aren't as much the done thing and aren't drilled in to children as much, whatever kindness you do come across might be more sincere than a kindness done through habit.
    Are they not drilled into children anymore? How come? Is it important to keep manners in our society or are we okay to let them go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Truth has value without manners, manners do not hold a value without truth.
    I think manners do hold a value for the recipient, even if the person exhibiting said manner is disgusted whilst performing it. Manners are about making the recipient comfortable.


    Sure, I understand this. I'm usually not bothered if somebody growls at me in the grocery (until he/she starts blaming me or something), but I understand that you are disturbed by these things. I just wanted to say - perhaps in an inappropriate manner? - that I do not consider this a "priority" on my list of "stupid things we do"

    Well, if you say it's okay for someone to 'growl' at you in the store, how about if they cut in line in front of you? How about if they litter on the ground outside? When the principle of having manners and using them breaks down, where will people draw the line on appropriate societal behavior? For one it might be not offering an old lady a seat on a bus, but for another it might include worse behavior like invading someone's space or even shoplifting.

    Lack of manners seems selfish to me from a societal standpoint. Selfishness just begets more selfishness. Just as kindness begets kindness.


    But I'm mostly curious about the status of manners in our society (I guess this could be considered Western society as well). The response so far seems to be that we are probably not as mannerly as we used to be. But what is causing this? A few have mentioned children not being taught manners. But why? And what are they learning instead? And are we okay as a culture about this?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  7. #47
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Well, if you say it's okay for someone to 'growl' at you in the store, how about if they cut in line in front of you? How about if they litter on the ground outside? When the principle of having manners and using them breaks down, where will people draw the line on appropriate societal behavior? For one it might be not offering an old lady a seat on a bus, but for another it might include worse behavior like invading someone's space or even shoplifting.
    You don't seem to notice the difference between "breaking a social rule", aka. "being rude" and "being rude" while doing something harmful to me or to someone else, to a group of people etc.

    If he hurts my interests directly by behaving in an unjust manner, like cutting in line in front of me, it won't go unnoticed. If he litters on the ground, that's also "harmful" to me and to others, and it does disturb me.

    I couldn't care less if he growls or calls me a douchebag though, he doesn't hurt anybody. I didn't say it's "appropriate", I've said that I don't care, and neither should you. It's "inappropriate" according to social rules. So WHAT? She won't shake hands with me. So WHAT?

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Lack of manners seems selfish to me from a societal standpoint. Selfishness just begets more selfishness. Just as kindness begets kindness.
    Not necessarily. Selfishness begets selfishness, and kindness begets selfishness. That's the default nature of men. Everything else is learned in the process to be able to fit in society.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I think manners do hold a value for the recipient, even if the person exhibiting said manner is disgusted whilst performing it. Manners are about making the recipient comfortable.
    And that's where we differ. If I'm kindly, gently told to fuck off from a program I'd like to participate in, while holding my tickets in my hand, I don't care about manners, they hold 0 value for me. Nothing. I don't feel "comfortable", I feel pissed and humiliated.

    On the other hand, if the same person is being rude while saying that my tickets have expired, that is a lot better for me, or a lot less worse, so to say. He has justice on his side, I was being an idiot, and I've managed to learn my lesson from the whole case. Again, justice > manners.

  8. #48
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Is it me or is each generation becoming ruder? I know I am not as etiquette-minded as my parents' generation. And I think my grandparents' generation was super nice: You couldn't knock on their door without being offered a cup of coffee or being invited in for a bit of conversation. Is it because people had more time then? What are you thoughts? Please also consider,

    1) Does type affect manners? Is it an Fe thing?
    2) Would you describe yourself as rude or lacking manners? Or both? Or well-mannered?
    3) Do you think you need to improve in the manners department?
    4) Are manners not needed as much anymore in this age of technology?

    Here are just a few articles that spurted forth on a google search:

    University graduates 'lack manners' - Telegraph

    GOOD MANNERS LACKING; DEFICIENCIES OF SOME AMERICAN YOUNG MEN.VARIOUS ... - Article Preview - The New York Times

    Manners Lacking When it Comes to Technology

    Does anyone have manners today? | Newspaper in Education - MassLive.com - masslive.com

    Many Aussie women lack manners and are &squo;foul-mouthed and loud&squo; | The Courier-Mail
    It is about money.

    The people who have more money than they need, worry about it.
    If you have more money than you need, you have to step on the rights of other people.

    It is so unfortunate.
    Only the people who do not worry about their money can afford good manners.

  9. #49
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    The one thing I like SJs for. They tend to have good manners.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I agree about authenticity. But respect is manners, no? So if you need respect to please, don't you need manners to please?
    manners are strictly behavior. they're symbolic of respect but not necessarily inspired by it.
    i should have specified, respect and its practice are worth a lot more.

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