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Are manners lacking in today's world? If so, why?

I have good manners

  • 1---I am a real dick

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • 2---I couldn't care less about manners

    Votes: 3 4.2%
  • 3---I use manners when I want something

    Votes: 3 4.2%
  • 4---I use manners around strangers most of the time

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • 5---I use manners when I have to, but I have to force it

    Votes: 6 8.3%
  • 6---I am reasonably well-mannered

    Votes: 27 37.5%
  • 7---I am better mannered than most of my friends

    Votes: 2 2.8%
  • 8---I use manners with my friends, but not so much with my family

    Votes: 3 4.2%
  • 9---I have really good manners and use them most of the time

    Votes: 13 18.1%
  • 10--I am as well mannered as the queen of england :)

    Votes: 4 5.6%

  • Total voters
    72

Lightyear

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Manners are relative, and saying that no one has any manners anymore is indicative of a dogmatic-Fe stance that refuses to adapt to changing circumstances and the cultural tide.

That's my excuse, anyway. :D

Actually I think there is some truth to the first sentence, manners depend on the culture. Germans appear rude to a lot of English people because we don't do the whole "How was your day?... yada yada... How are the kids?... blah blah" small talk thing. To us the English way of conversing appears hypocritical (Why do you ask a question if you don't even want to know the answer?) while to an English person we probably appear like we are missing some social graces. Also I frequently get from English people that I am a "truth-teller", basically another term for being frank or even rude, while I don't see myself as particularly outspoken. It's just that even after having lived in England since 2001 I still can't get over my roots, I am not going to say something that I don't mean just to make you feel happy, I would feel awful and like such a hypocrite and fake compliments have zero power in the long run.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Expressing dislike "valiantly" is a nice quality for sure, until it doesn't turn to "fake expressions for the sake of a compromise". It's just that I don't see this problem expressed in the Op, or perhaps I don't see it as a problem - certainly not as important as a lack of honesty and concern. THAT is something we should talk about.

So, there is a range of communication where manners could exist for you, but not when it borders on, or infringes on, truth?

I'm not sure the bolded isn't sometimes a better route to take when your interaction is sparse or temporary. Isn't compromise good? It just means both sides don't get their way totally, and meet in the middle. Isn't meeting in the middle the best thing for society and getting along with people?

Lack of honesty and concern for others is important, but is much much deeper an issue than having manners, or lack thereof (and beyond the scope of this thread, altho very thread-worthy). You can be a douchebag irl because you lack empathy for others (for whatever reasons) but I'd still like you to be nice to me if you bump into me in the grocery. You know?
 

OrangeAppled

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I do think manners are lacking in people, but I don't think there is any one way to be well-mannered. To me, it's more of a principle: do your words and actions show a spirit of hospitality, kindness, generosity, respect, etc, towards your fellow human? I don't see a lot of that in people. It's the virtues behind manners that are lacking.

Obviously, cultures and other contexts will make standards of manners differ, which is why I think it has to boil down to the motivation behind them. People may have used to follow set standards for manners, but there may have not been real feeling behind them, and I think that's why some people reject the notion of manners now as being "stuffy" or "fake".

Personally, I am -or would be- oblivious to the manners in my environment if not for my ISFJ mom. I suppose everyone's mom teaches them these things, but she is especially sensitive to social etiquette. As long as I can be shown how something relates to a principle I value, then I can usually accept it; but I almost never accept that is the only way, as so much in life must be determined by the specific situation. It does frustrate me when people cannot see a genuine gesture because it does not follow a set of prescribed rules, or they get stuck on formalities over the underlying sentiment.
 

Quinlan

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I don't know about that.

I just suppose that since manners aren't as much the done thing and aren't drilled in to children as much, whatever kindness you do come across might be more sincere than a kindness done through habit.
 

Litvyak

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So, there is a range of communication where manners could exist for you, but not when it borders on, or infringes on, truth?

Truth has value without manners, manners do not hold a value without truth.

Isn't compromise good? It just means both sides don't get their way totally, and meet in the middle.

It's fine, really. Compromises are sometimes necessary, it's OK until there is no dishonesty involved. They are not always the most rewarding solution though, especially from a personal standpoint.

You can be a douchebag irl because you lack empathy for others (for whatever reasons) but I'd still like you to be nice to me if you bump into me in the grocery. You know?

Sure, I understand this. I'm usually not bothered if somebody growls at me in the grocery (until he/she starts blaming me or something), but I understand that you are disturbed by these things. I just wanted to say - perhaps in an inappropriate manner? - that I do not consider this a "priority" on my list of "stupid things we do" :)
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Actually I think there is some truth to the first sentence, manners depend on the culture. Germans appear rude to a lot of English people because we don't do the whole "How was your day?... yada yada... How are the kids?... blah blah" small talk thing. To us the English way of conversing appears hypocritical (Why do you ask a question if you don't even want to know the answer?) while to an English person we probably appear like we are missing some social graces. Also I frequently get from English people that I am a "truth-teller", basically another term for being frank or even rude, while I don't see myself as particularly outspoken. It's just that even after having lived in England since 2001 I still can't get over my roots, I am not going to say something that I don't mean just to make you feel happy, I would feel awful and like such a hypocrite and fake compliments have zero power in the long run.

I think all infjs, and probably many others, don't like small talk. But intercultural manners is an interesting topic, for sure. I think you can still have manners if you come from different places. But it is more challenging probably if you want to fit in. Sorta like learning the language to make is easier, except learning the social etiquette a bit to make things smoother.

I do think manners are lacking in people, but I don't think there is any one way to be well-mannered. To me, it's more of a principle: do your words and actions show a spirit of hospitality, kindness, generosity, respect, etc, towards your fellow human? I don't see a lot of that in people. It's the virtues behind manners that are lacking.

So, why do you think the virtues are lacking? What is causing/has caused this to be so? We used to have the virtues which inevitably led to using more manners? So now virtues are gone and no more manners?

Obviously, cultures and other contexts will make standards of manners differ, which is why I think it has to boil down to the motivation behind them. People may have used to follow set standards for manners, but there may have not been real feeling behind them, and I think that's why some people reject the notion of manners now as being "stuffy" or "fake".

So people today are just more 'real' and that's why manners are on the decrease? What about using others words that imply more meaning then, like decency or consideraton or compassion or empathy? Are people just as X (insert aforementioned word) as they always have been? Or are people not as X?


I just suppose that since manners aren't as much the done thing and aren't drilled in to children as much, whatever kindness you do come across might be more sincere than a kindness done through habit.

Are they not drilled into children anymore? How come? Is it important to keep manners in our society or are we okay to let them go?

Truth has value without manners, manners do not hold a value without truth.

I think manners do hold a value for the recipient, even if the person exhibiting said manner is disgusted whilst performing it. Manners are about making the recipient comfortable.


Sure, I understand this. I'm usually not bothered if somebody growls at me in the grocery (until he/she starts blaming me or something), but I understand that you are disturbed by these things. I just wanted to say - perhaps in an inappropriate manner? - that I do not consider this a "priority" on my list of "stupid things we do" :)


Well, if you say it's okay for someone to 'growl' at you in the store, how about if they cut in line in front of you? How about if they litter on the ground outside? When the principle of having manners and using them breaks down, where will people draw the line on appropriate societal behavior? For one it might be not offering an old lady a seat on a bus, but for another it might include worse behavior like invading someone's space or even shoplifting.

Lack of manners seems selfish to me from a societal standpoint. Selfishness just begets more selfishness. Just as kindness begets kindness.


But I'm mostly curious about the status of manners in our society (I guess this could be considered Western society as well). The response so far seems to be that we are probably not as mannerly as we used to be. But what is causing this? A few have mentioned children not being taught manners. But why? And what are they learning instead? And are we okay as a culture about this?
 

Litvyak

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Well, if you say it's okay for someone to 'growl' at you in the store, how about if they cut in line in front of you? How about if they litter on the ground outside? When the principle of having manners and using them breaks down, where will people draw the line on appropriate societal behavior? For one it might be not offering an old lady a seat on a bus, but for another it might include worse behavior like invading someone's space or even shoplifting.

You don't seem to notice the difference between "breaking a social rule", aka. "being rude" and "being rude" while doing something harmful to me or to someone else, to a group of people etc.

If he hurts my interests directly by behaving in an unjust manner, like cutting in line in front of me, it won't go unnoticed. If he litters on the ground, that's also "harmful" to me and to others, and it does disturb me.

I couldn't care less if he growls or calls me a douchebag though, he doesn't hurt anybody. I didn't say it's "appropriate", I've said that I don't care, and neither should you. It's "inappropriate" according to social rules. So WHAT? She won't shake hands with me. So WHAT?

Lack of manners seems selfish to me from a societal standpoint. Selfishness just begets more selfishness. Just as kindness begets kindness.

Not necessarily. Selfishness begets selfishness, and kindness begets selfishness. That's the default nature of men. Everything else is learned in the process to be able to fit in society.

I think manners do hold a value for the recipient, even if the person exhibiting said manner is disgusted whilst performing it. Manners are about making the recipient comfortable.

And that's where we differ. If I'm kindly, gently told to fuck off from a program I'd like to participate in, while holding my tickets in my hand, I don't care about manners, they hold 0 value for me. Nothing. I don't feel "comfortable", I feel pissed and humiliated.

On the other hand, if the same person is being rude while saying that my tickets have expired, that is a lot better for me, or a lot less worse, so to say. He has justice on his side, I was being an idiot, and I've managed to learn my lesson from the whole case. Again, justice > manners.
 

wildcat

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Is it me or is each generation becoming ruder? I know I am not as etiquette-minded as my parents' generation. And I think my grandparents' generation was super nice: You couldn't knock on their door without being offered a cup of coffee or being invited in for a bit of conversation. Is it because people had more time then? What are you thoughts? Please also consider,

1) Does type affect manners? Is it an Fe thing?
2) Would you describe yourself as rude or lacking manners? Or both? Or well-mannered?
3) Do you think you need to improve in the manners department?
4) Are manners not needed as much anymore in this age of technology?

Here are just a few articles that spurted forth on a google search:

University graduates 'lack manners' - Telegraph

GOOD MANNERS LACKING; DEFICIENCIES OF SOME AMERICAN YOUNG MEN.VARIOUS ... - Article Preview - The New York Times

Manners Lacking When it Comes to Technology

Does anyone have manners today? | Newspaper in Education - MassLive.com - masslive.com

Many Aussie women lack manners and are &squo;foul-mouthed and loud&squo; | The Courier-Mail
It is about money.

The people who have more money than they need, worry about it.
If you have more money than you need, you have to step on the rights of other people.

It is so unfortunate.
Only the people who do not worry about their money can afford good manners.
 

entropie

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The one thing I like SJs for. They tend to have good manners.
 

1104

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I agree about authenticity. But respect is manners, no? So if you need respect to please, don't you need manners to please?

manners are strictly behavior. they're symbolic of respect but not necessarily inspired by it.
i should have specified, respect and its practice are worth a lot more.
 

Ayeaye

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The slow degradation of society, leads to a slow degradation of manners. Also if nobody returns your courtesy it is very tempting to fall into the same step thus enhancing the problem.
 

DiscoBiscuit

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I think I am well mannered.

I open doors and pull out chairs.

When at a REALLY nice dinner, I know what order to use the silver ware in.

No elbows on the table.

When someone offers to pay for dinner, I know how many times to tell them that that's not necessary before begrudgingly caving in.

I know how to ballroom dance.

Etc. etc.

That being said, I had a fairly unique childhood experience, and can understand how manners have fallen by the wayside.
 

Ayeaye

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I do not wish to be rude but this is etiquette not manners.Someone cannot be rude for not knowing etiquette and vise versa.

When at a REALLY nice dinner, I know what order to use the silver ware in.

No elbows on the table.

I know how to ballroom dance.

That is why level ten is redundant, the queen knows etiquette but this is simply affairs of the state. she doesn't have to either open a door, pull out a chair etc to anyone. so manners of the queen unknown.

As with your LocalJesus in post seven i am nine unless i am having a tantrum.
 

CzeCze

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1) Does type affect manners? Is it an Fe thing?

It seems like it could be related to Fe except I'm not sure how much Fe I have. I am generally very *conscious* though of making people comfortable and lending a hand, don't think I was taught those manners necessarily growing up, it's more I have a both a desire to do so and remain conscious to it.

I think being 'polite' or having 'good manners' comes from a trifecta of wanting to be polite, anticipating/being conscious of what's going on around you, and knowing what is expected of you.

2) Would you describe yourself as rude or lacking manners? Or both? Or well-mannered?

I think in public I am as standoffish and lacking in manners as everyone else. I try to match my surroundings. As some cities are a lot friendlier and better mannered than others.

Actually, I'm a little better than average, because I am aware of personal space and I don't yell at people. LOL. I'm really surprised when I'm shopping and people literally shove by you or stick their hand right in front of your nose to grab something without saying anything. Sometimes I'm like - are you trying to make babies with me?? :thelook: Then there are people who like taking up seats with their crap. I haven't seen that happen in NYC but it happens all the time in DC.

Then again, DC is an exceedingly rude city where no one seems to know how to use public space.

Then again, when I was in Spain I wanted to strangle - hug very hard (wait, that sounds worse) some of those kids - and their parents. Did they stop beating children post-Franco??? One little bastard hit the emergency 'stop' button on the escalator to the Renfe platform while myself and a silver haired grandma were still riding down. His mom didn't even yell at him and she smiled at me as if she thought it was cute. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if she were racist and thought since she doesn't speak Mandarin (no I'm not Chinese) I wouldn't "understand her" anyway. Then another bastard in the car I was in starting banging the very heavy metal folding tables until everyone in the train were staring daggers at him and his friend told him to stop.

Then again, people's manners seem to disappear in groups and dealing with anyone they see as "outsider". A lot of behavior, particularly while I was travelling, wasn't so much lack of manners so much as ignorance and sense of entitlement or just group-think. I mean, I have met very, very generous and kind people in my travels, good. But also, a good number of bastards that I wanted to strangle make scary faces at.

I think you very quickly see in a group or society who the truly well-mannered, civic-minded, good-hearted, or high-minded people are, because they are the individuals lending a hand or showing good manners to everyone, not just their immediate friends and family.

I remember I was in a jewelry story in a really small town in Peru and this European looking tourist walks in without saying a word, puts his heavy camera bag next to me on the counter I'm looking at, then promptly turns around and takes a bunch of pictures of something across the street. Then he looks straight at me, again without a word, and walks out of the store with his bag. No greeting, no acknowledgement to either the saleswoman or myself. Then the saleswoman gave a little sigh and got out a spray cleaner and a paper towel and wiped down all the smudges and dirt his bag left on the counter. I wish I could say assholes like this were the exception when travelling, but they are NOT.

Then I realized part of it is different expectations and ideas of 'manners' and obligations and expectations even to equals in one's culture. I honestly think the US still has pretty high standards, which goes back to 'down home' ideals or something. Even the fact people talk about how we're 'failing as a nation in manners' - i think in truly rude societies, people don't give a fuuuuuuug. Like, Russia.

HAHAAHAHA.

I am so kidding about the Russia part, but you get my drift.

It's about relativism?

It's about culture vs individual vs people from other cultures...or something.

3) Do you think you need to improve in the manners department?
Maybe for formal dining? Or other events, like a wedding.

I think an etiquette expert could tell me more. But, I have the basics covered, I keep eye contaact, I greet people, I say thank you, I try not to overstep or overstay boundaries or invitations, I don't expect people to take care of me, etc. I do small things for people in public, like I've given people back phones or cameras they've dropped or ask people what they are looking for if they are obviously looking for something.

4) Are manners not needed as much anymore in this age of technology?

No, they are still needed, but the kids just don't know. Damn children....

LOL.


I'll tell Trinity!!! LOL.
 

Chunes

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Is it me or is each generation becoming ruder?

It's you. And a few other guys from thousands of years ago.
(Though to be fair at least one of these is satirical, I'm sure.)

Socrates said:
The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and are tyrants over their teachers.

Plato said:
What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?

Hesiod said:
I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint
 

Sol_

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the more people near - the more aggressive they become. just biology
 

The Outsider

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The world changes constantly. The rituals that no longer apply to the current era will be tossed and replaced by others. It's progress.
 

KDude

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I don't think anyone's getting ruder. If anything the "Gen Y" kids are less rude than "Gen X" kids (me).

I put "reasonably well mannered", but it's all relative. I was told to not come into church by a pastor once because I had green hair. Who's more well mannered there?
 

miss fortune

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I have wonderful manners most of the time- except when I decide someone has it coming and needs to be knocked down a peg or two :doh:

I even took etiquette in college in order to know what the 4th fork in formal dining setting was for and other such things :holy:

I find that manners get you farther in life than lack of manners do- plus, saying please and thank you shouldn't take much effort or kill anyone. Most courteseys are nice gestures that don't really take time or effort out of your day, so I really don't get why more people don't have better manners :thelook:
 

spin-1/2-nuclei

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Is it me or is each generation becoming ruder?

Honestly for me it depends on the situation. For the most part I treat people the way I would like to be treated. In a situation where someone is being rude to me and I can tell it's due to a factor beyond their control I will not respond with hostility or rudeness no matter how egregious their behavior is towards me. Then other times when someone is being rude for factors well within their control I am pretty likely to treat them in the same way if for no other reason than my own amusement.

I think respect is something that is earned not given. If a stranger on the street is rude to you, it's probably best to give them the benefit of the doubt. You can never know what is going on in someone else's life behind the scenes. On the other hand if you've got some person in your life that is always treating you like crap it might be useful to dish it back to them from time to time.

I've always felt that people learn by example, but not in the sense that some people think. Occasionally it is necessary to subject someone to their own behavior problems in order to facilitate behavior modification. Typically I only do so in very drastic cases, but while I can be the nicest person you'll ever meet I also have a tendency to not take crap from people. In all fairness they typically get 10 or 12 tries before I dose them with their own medicine.
 
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