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The Godfather

simulatedworld

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With Michael, you have to take into consideration the effect Apollonia's death ultimately played in what he would become.

He's definitely an NTJ, even before Sicily. Obviously calculated, calm, even dispassionate - The way he handles himself at the hospital (even surprises himself), it's his decision to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey... Hell, even the way he handles himself with Apollonia's father. Still, he was nothing like what he became after Sicily.

When she was murdered, he seemed completely hollowed by it. Everything was business from that point.

I think it prompted to him to bury whatever Fi he had going for him very deeply into his subconscious--"How can I avoid being hurt this badly again? By disallowing emotional response."
 

Fecal McAngry

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With Michael, you have to take into consideration the effect Apollonia's death ultimately played in what he would become.

He's definitely an NTJ, even before Sicily. Obviously calculated, calm, even dispassionate - The way he handles himself at the hospital (even surprises himself), it's his decision to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey... Hell, even the way he handles himself with Apollonia's father. Still, he was nothing like what he became after Sicily.

When she was murdered, he seemed completely hollowed by it. Everything was business from that point.
Yes. Not going to argue the types of fictional characters, but the way Al played Michael, that quiet intensity and iciness, it's very hard for me to perceive him as anything other than an INTJ. Here with ENFP Diane Keaton:

YouTube - Michael Slaps Kay. The Godfather 2

And all credit to him that he could create an equally credible ESTP badass in the film SCARFACE...
 

evilrobot

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That's interesting; I don't see anything in the OP signifying that you only wanted MBTI analysis. If you didn't want to discuss Jungian functions, I find it odd that you used them freely in your responses to other posts here. If you stick strictly to MBTI, Te, Ti, etc. are meaningless terms because MBTI only deals with E, I, N, S, F, T, P and J as separate and distinct concepts. There's no sub-classification of S, N, T or F.

You've got it backwards. The MBTI types were extrapolated from Jung's functions, not the other way around. MBTI doesn't actually discuss directional functions at all--it doesn't differentiate between Fe and Fi; both are just condensed into "F." Therefore, if you're discussing Fe, Fi, Te, etc., you are using Jungian terms.


Nobody can prove anybody wrong about the types of anyone, so I don't understand why you keep asking for that. Typology, since it is not testable or empirically verifiable, operates on inductive reasoning--the best you can do is make a "strong" argument that x person is y type; you cannot evaluate subjective analysis in terms of deductive reasoning. There is no such thing as a truly "correct" or "incorrect" typing, only "strong" or "weak" arguments for types (which are ultimately subjective anyway.)

Aside from that, though, I think you've missed my point about Fe vs. Te. Having strong family values doesn't necessarily indicate Fe use; having a conception of morality based on an external standard does.

So one could have strong family values based on Fe--if his idea of ethics is based on an external standard and that external standard says that family values are important.

Or one could have strong family values based on Fi, if his idea of ethics is personal and internal, and he feels it's important to support his family structure.

Or one could have strong family values based on Te, if his idea of logic comes from an external standard and he sees that keeping a family together is an objectively effective method of reaching whatever goals he has.

Or one could have strong family values based on Ti, if his idea of logic is personal and internal and he believes that it's logically consistent to support his family structure.

etc., etc...you're still defining functions according to displayed behavior, but functions don't do that. That's what MBTI's basic four-dichotomy sliding scale system is for. Observing and categorizing obvious surface behaviors--the what, not the why.

Functions are more difficult because they describe fundamental components of value systems--if we say someone uses Fe, all we're saying is that he bases his concept of ethics on some external standard. This may (and frequently does) result in "strong family values", but some Fe users do not have strong family values. The defining characteristic of Fe is that it motivates people to define morality according to an objective external standard--the why, not the what.

If you're not interested in discussing functional value systems/would prefer to discuss only MBTI, that's fine, but it does make it confusing when you use terms like Te and Fe in your analysis. MBTI doesn't encompass these terms at all.

Many of your points, including your little lecture on function use, are ridiculous. Your head is either pretty far up a certain orifice where the sun don’t shine, amigo, or you’re being deliberately obtuse and splitting hairs to bait me. Either way, I’m done wasting my time with this discussion. You sort of remind me of another ENTP here, who happens to be on my friend’s list. If he’s read this thread, he’s no doubt laughing his ass off at me for being a chump and indulging you as much as I have.
 

simulatedworld

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Many of your points, including your little lecture on function use, are ridiculous. Your head is either pretty far up a certain orifice where the sun don’t shine, amigo, or you’re being deliberately obtuse and splitting hairs to bait me. Either way, I’m done wasting my time with this discussion. You sort of remind me of another ENTP here, who happens to be on my friend’s list. If he’s read this thread, he’s no doubt laughing his ass off at me for being a chump and indulging you as much as I have.

:doh:

Or, of course, another possibility: that this topic is a little more complex than you think, and you don't really understand its nuances yet.

But don't listen to me; I've only read all the original source material and spent 3,900 posts discussing it.
 

evilrobot

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:doh:

Or, of course, another possibility: that this topic is a little more complex than you think, and you don't really understand its nuances yet.

But don't listen to me; I've only read all the original source material and spent 3,900 posts discussing it.

I bet it's tough being a misunterstood genius.
 

simulatedworld

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I bet it's tough being a misunterstood genius.

Actually I'm pretty well understood by most people who've bothered to put any time into studying this topic.

I'm not sure "misunterstood" [sic] is the right term here, given that you've made no attempt to understand in the first place. I'm sure with your two months of forum experience and zero background on the source material in question, though, you've put in all the effort necessary.
 

mysterio

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Many of your points, including your little lecture on function use, are ridiculous. Your head is either pretty far up a certain orifice where the sun don’t shine, amigo, or you’re being deliberately obtuse and splitting hairs to bait me. Either way, I’m done wasting my time with this discussion. You sort of remind me of another ENTP here, who happens to be on my friend’s list. If he’s read this thread, he’s no doubt laughing his ass off at me for being a chump and indulging you as much as I have.


yeah it was fairly amusing you Js are easy targets because you’re too serious you need to loosen up the panties or put on a bigger size.

But don’t worry dude you kicked that poser’s ass and he knows it – or least you were more right. ENTPs are quicksilver in these debates, best at keeping people off balance and flowing with the changing process. his arguments are inconsistant and he contradicts himself but he “wins” because no one else here will notice it. his replies are what ENTPs resort to because we hate losing arguments we distort the other guy’s points, split hairs and spin convoluted bullshit to turn the tables. and if this is pointed out we condescendingly imply the other person’s not sophisticated enough to understand our advanced knowledge / we also like pushing buttons to get a reaction = free entertainment. Ten to one if I checked stimulated troll’s posts id find a lot of button pushing. but no one calls you on being a forum troll if you’re one of the gang. only outsiders get called trolls for trolling.

Vito A level-headed ENTJ with strong Fe.
Michael, INTJ

Plausible but vito could also be ENFJ w/ good Te.


Actually I'm pretty well understood by most people who've bothered to put any time into studying this topic.

I'm not sure "misunterstood" [sic] is the right term here, given that you've made no attempt to understand in the first place. I'm sure with your two months of forum experience and zero background on the source material in question, though, you've put in all the effort necessary.

youre even more conceited than I am dude
evilrobot’s pionts were basic stuff to anyone who’s read jung’s types and mbti books like they claim: related but different systems Jung didn’t use the same 4 letter preferences and mbti uses modified definitions of jungian functions. you said he should’ve indicated which one he was using to type charactgers are you expecting everyone to do that on these threads? pretty fucking hard to take that seriously

and let me get this straight, you think forum epxerience = knowledge ?? oookay i guess i don't know too much since i don't have all your time to waste on forums
 

heart

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Are we talking about the movie or the novel? The movie is nothing compared to the novel. Read the novel and it's one of those novels that you'll never look at life or people the same again.

In the novel, Mike does want the family to slowly become legit, he just has to move through all the dark stuff before hand, but he can't see what he is becoming and that it just won't be possible. The self-deception is part of what makes his transformation so powerful.

Kay in the novel: INFJ. In the movie, she's a totally different character more like ENFP. The Mike and Kay in the novel would never reach the point where Mike slaps her. Kay sees what he is and accepts it in the end. She sees his self deception and through her, the reader does as well.
 

simulatedworld

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youre even more conceited than I am dude
evilrobot’s pionts were basic stuff to anyone who’s read jung’s types and mbti books like they claim: related but different systems Jung didn’t use the same 4 letter preferences and mbti uses modified definitions of jungian functions. you said he should’ve indicated which one he was using to type charactgers are you expecting everyone to do that on these threads? pretty fucking hard to take that seriously

I'd love to hear about why my points were inconsistent. I do enjoy a good trolling from time to time, but in this case I was dead serious. Most people really do erroneously associate functions with singular actions, when in reality they're building blocks of value systems.

I'm not splitting hairs--read my post about the F and T functions again. There's some very good content in there; I promise.

and let me get this straight, you think forum epxerience = knowledge ?? oookay i guess i don't know too much since i don't have all your time to waste on forums

No, not necessarily; I just think evilrobot probably hasn't spent very much time studying this.

I dunno who you are or what your background on this is, but if you think people are running around using both Te and Fe routinely then you probably haven't read Psychological Types, or at least didn't understand it. Jung defined each set of functions (Ji, Je, Pi, Pe) as opposing forces that contradict each other's worldviews. Being good at something that most Te users are good at doesn't mean one is actually a Te user.

And by the way, it's typologycentral, not MBTI central, so if you start a thread and you want responses to be solely in MBTI terms with no input from any other typology systems (or even from the original source material that all of them were based on, Jung) you should probably specify.

Most threads arguing about types go into Jungian functional theory, if you hadn't noticed.
 

heart

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Having read the book and seen the movie, I would say that Micheal starts out as a ISFP with a strong will to quietly do his own thing and is easy going about life, he's not looking for conflicts. Then due to the things that happen to his family and the response demanded from him, he transforms into a shadow version of ENTJ.

At its core, it is a story about a powerful and extreme transformation against a character's will. He becomes what he always swore he would not.

Vito has a similar dramatic transformation. One of the lines in the book when he is planning to kill Fanucci is that he had never before thought so clearly and calmly. It seems to come to him as though he were thinking unconsciously. His friends too are awed by the change in him. His wife for the first time is afraid of him.
 

evilrobot

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No, not necessarily; I just think evilrobot probably hasn't spent very much time studying this.

if you think people are running around using both Te and Fe routinely then you probably haven't read Psychological Types, or at least didn't understand it. Jung defined each set of functions (Ji, Je, Pi, Pe) as opposing forces that contradict each other's worldviews. Being good at something that most Te users are good at doesn't mean one is actually a Te user.

Anyone who wants to call me the biggest idiot on this forum for still responding to this guy is free to do so. I won’t challenge it. This is what typical ENTPs do, keep egging you and on and on; it’s what they thrive on. Like Mysterio said, they’re the button pushers of the mbti.

Again, simulatedworld, instead of taking your cheap shots at me by implying I’ve never read Jung or mbti books I challenge you to adress my points without altering them. For instance, that Te and Fe values aren’t mutually exlusive in everyone. Does this fit actual people? And no, I’m not demanding hard empirical proof like you keep repeating to distort my meaning. You want to have it both ways, talking about Jung’s typology theory like it’s hard science that everyone fits into perfectly, then saying it’s all just theory when someone challenges your dogmatic assertions.

My point is the only way to test the validity of typology theories is on people. If in this case certain EJs say they can identify with being fairly balanced in Te and Fe, it proves what I was positing has some validity and Jung’s original theory was possibly incorrect along those lines (at least for some people).
 

simulatedworld

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My point is the only way to test the validity of typology theories is on people. If in this case certain EJs say they can identify with being fairly balanced in Te and Fe, it proves what I was positing has some validity and Jung’s original theory was possibly incorrect along those lines (at least for some people).

This is a question of definition. I've tried to explain but you just respond with stereotypical INTJ insistence that I'm "splitting hairs" because you don't seem to understand the level of specificity I'm using. (This is a pretty typical Te criticism of Ti-oriented theory.) You want breadth of applicability (Te) so you think my focus on depth of precision (Ti) is pointless and irrelevant.

One more time, though:

In Jung's terms, Te+Fi is a worldview that looks inwardly for ethics and outwardly for logic. The idea that real ethics could come from an external source is nonsensical to Fi, and the idea that there could be some subjective internal definition of logic is nonsensical to Te.

As I've tried to explain, "using Fe" doesn't mean "doing things that FJs are good at", it means deriving your ethical views from an external standard of some sort. You're defining functions by the action performed instead of the value system motivating it, which is not what Jung meant when he defined these terms.

I fully agree that a Te user can learn many of the skills that Fe users are good at, but that's not what using Fe is. If he's not making ethical decisions according to an external standard, he is not using extroverted Feeling.

Vito Corleone was surely good at many skills that TJs are usually good at as well as many skills that FJs are usually good at, but he can't be both Te and Fe because these terms represent value systems that fundamentally contradict the basis of each other's conceptions of logic and ethics.
 
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