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Steven J Gould

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I think that this notion is logically incoherent. Human nature is a term identical in meaning to how a human is. As a general rule, when you say that A is the nature of B, you're saying this is how A is B. In other words, one's nature is the same as one's identity.

Okay, then defining human nature is not a task worth engaging in at all.

I'm thinking of human nature as a basic blueprint. Certain outliers will have some differing traits. That way, at least we're in a frame we can come up with hypotheses in.

If we adopt your definition, a non-average human being is not a human being at all as human nature traits don't apply to him.

You're thinking boolean. I'm thinking continuous. As in, people can be more or less human. (I'm basically using the adjective "human" as "typical human".)

My definition of human nature includes all qualities that human beings have. For example, breathing, consuming food, urinating and a host of other physical functions and in addition to that; basic intellectual cognition and emoting. Its very much possible to construct a definition of a human which will include all mutations and other cases of idiosyncrasy. Human nature is a set of traits that all human beings will inevitably share.



Really, there could be a village where no human being does anything that is in its natural tendency to do? This human being won't breathe or eat? Its possible that some natural tendencies of a human being may be abrogated as a result of our experiment, yet not all as I have shown. However, once at least one of them undergoes an alteration, a new specie will have evolved as the creature's nature and indeed 'human' nature has changed. As a result the speciation in the strictest sense of the term will occur, or a change of the biological status of a creature from human to something else. Notably, some properties of human nature are part of 'creature nature' or living thing-nature and therefore its inevitable that any creature that exists has at least some of the qualities a human has; such as breathing for example.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you can't just make a list of traits that all humans have and call that human nature because you miss out on being able to discuss tendencies that most humans have. With your definition, it's not a part of human nature to be violent because some people aren't. But if you don't account for violence at all when speaking of human nature, you make the term "human nature" almost useless.

All I'm saying is that I'm using human nature in a more dynamic way than you. My variables are continuous, yours are boolean. (And I suspect most people are more interested in tendencies anyway.)
 

Blackwater

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The statement that intelligence is influenced substantially by environment is inconsistent with the claim that it is largely innate.

no it isnt. suppose you have to kinds of seed. one good and one bad.

you plant each in very rich soil

the good one is still going to be taller than the bad one.

IQ tests and IQ data have long been known to be manipulable.

all data is manipulable. it does not prove anything for or against eigther claim
 

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i could see it. definitely see serious Fe. he has those "love me i'm wonderful" Fe gestures.
 

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Okay, then defining human nature is not a task worth engaging in at all.
That is another question. In this discussion I have defined human nature in a way that Gould was using the term as my conversation with Blackwater was regarding Gould's views on human nature rather than the definition of such a term for the purpose of a general discussion.

I'm thinking of human nature as a basic blueprint. Certain outliers will have some differing traits..


That way, at least we're in a frame we can come up with hypotheses in...

We can also hypothesize in the context of a human nature definition as a set of qualities that all humans inevitably have. We can make conjectures about what behaviors these qualities shall entail. For instance, if it is human nature to first and foremost seek pleasure, then we can make a hypothesis that all people will pursue their own pleasure in one way or another in all cases.





You're thinking boolean. I'm thinking continuous. As in, people can be more or less human. (I'm basically using the adjective "human" as "typical human".) ...


This definition accomplishes nothing but an opportunity to discuss what qualities common people tend to have. This is not relevant to the question of human nature because traditionally the term nature denotes what one has acquired by means other than nurture or interaction with environment: what one has acquired by virtue of his or her innate dispositions.

If your discussion focuses simply on what qualities common people have, there is no reason to believe that the qualities they have are a result of their innate dispositions rather than their experiences in life.

My definition of human nature avoids this problem. It posits that not only is it the case that all people that live today or have lived in the past possess a certain set of qualities, but all people who could possibly exist will also have them. We know that the qualities in question must necessarily be innate because they are immune to the influence of circumstance: we know that they are immutable because in all possible scenarios, all people will have them. This shows that nurture has not in any way contributing to any person developing the aforementioned attributes and we therefore can conclude that they are innate or a result of nature.

It is only fitting to define human nature as qualities humans have due to nature rather than nurture.





That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you can't just make a list of traits that all humans have and call that human nature because you miss out on being able to discuss tendencies that most humans have....


Why should we discuss tendencies that most humans have in a discussion about human nature in general? Such a question is better addressed in a sociological study of a typical person.


With your definition, it's not a part of human nature to be violent because some people aren't. ....

No, how people are has nothing to do with my definition of human nature. What is relevant to the definition in question is how all people must be under all circumstances. I don't think that its impossible to construct a scenario where the violence of people will be unalterable by any external influence. If you'd be talking about the tendency to be violent, the matter would be different. Although in that case, I think we could still construct a society where at least some people won't have a propensity for violent thought or action; thus the tendency to be violent is not a part of human nature either.

But if you don't account for violence at all when speaking of human nature, you make the term "human nature" almost useless.....

I don't see any support for this view.

All I'm saying is that I'm using human nature in a more dynamic way than you. My variables are continuous, yours are boolean. (And I suspect most people are more interested in tendencies anyway.)

You've turned your term into an empty vessel to be occupied with whatever notion authors may associate with the term human nature, even if illegitimately.

no it isnt. suppose you have to kinds of seed. one good and one bad.

you plant each in very rich soil

the good one is still going to be taller than the bad one.



Largely Definition | Definition of Largely at Dictionary.com

"1. For the most part; mainly"

In most technical sense, largely, or for the most part means that entity A is more efficacious than entity B, granted that only A and B are in the universe of discourse. So if entity A is 51% prevalent, it can be said that it is largely prevalent. In that case however, both A and B have a significant impact on the scenario. For instance, if intelligence is 51% hereditary and 49% resultant of environmental influences, we could say it is largely hereditary yet both intelligence and environmental influences significantly influence how intelligent one could be.

However, that wasn't the definition of largely the Bell Curve authors used. They'd be posit that if anything, 90% of intelligence is hereditary and 10% environmentally entailed.




all data is manipulable. it does not prove anything for or against eigther claim

Not the data is manipulable, the IQ test itself is. Its questions are simple enough in nature to be studied and comprehended by route, or as that article in wikipedia I sent to you shows, its possible for a person to train himself to do well on this test. Its in the same category as the GRE, or Grades. None of us have the temerity to assert that our grade point average or our GRE score serve as precise indicators of our intelligence, even less natural intelligence. On that note, why should we make such an outlandish claim with respect to IQ test results?



but all the while... is SJG an ENFJ or not?

I don't know what his type is, but I've shown your supporting rationale of the conclusion that he is a Feeling type to be unacceptable. He may still be an ENFJ, though not for the reasons that you have in mind.

i could see it. definitely see serious Fe. he has those "love me i'm wonderful" Fe gestures.

Yeah, I get an eery vibe from you, just like I got from my alcoholic ISTP uncle: you must be an ISTP.

No, seriously, vibes are indicators of a type? The gut feelings we get about people tells us something about their nature? In that case we really should give more credence to fortune tellers!
 

Blackwater

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oh bluewing

you can train for iq tests but even so, you cant train yourself more than 15 points up or down. so you cant go from 100 to 160.

this means that intelligence is still largely innane. of course, the environment can break you but that isnt really relevant to my argument

besides, there are other correlations: people whoose ears are symmetrical have a higher iq on average, and people who can tab their fingers very fast against a hard surface. these things indicate that iq is largely biological as noone would presume that you grow more symmetrical ears from contemplating philosophical problems, would they? :jew:
 

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oh bluewing

you can train for iq tests but even so, you cant train yourself more than 15 points up or down. so you cant go from 100 to 160.:

I've read this before, but I wouldn't accept this notion uncritically. Keep in mind, most sources you'll find on the subject are unreliable as the problem of IQ has long been influenced by social and political propaganda. Its also the case that very few reliable studies on the matter have been published as honest scholars tend to shy away from the topic.

On purely conceptual grounds, I'd be skeptical of that claim. Most IQ questions are rather simple in nature and given the sufficient time, a person of average intelligence can figure them all out. Furthermore, should he or she take enough tests, they could decipher the underlying pattern of most IQ tests as they are simple enough to accomplish this feat.

The trouble is that most people don't bother doing that and generally have little interest in spending a great deal of time solving puzzles. They also have little interest in pursuing other problem-solving activities that would help them perform well on the IQ test, as a result they stay at approximately the same level.

Besides, look at how many obtuse, but ambitious and industrious individuals attain admittance to Ivy league schools and graduate with honors? Part of what they had to accomplish for this is attain high GRE scores and other high test scores that correlate highly to IQ. If they could do that, they should be able to score highly on an IQ test. Since these people by definition are not bright and therefore aren't talented at solving puzzles, their test score before training should have been much lower than after.

Altogether, if you can dramatically improve your standardized test scores, there is no reason why you can't enhance your IQ scores as significantly.

Lastly, having a high IQ score is unlikely to be reflective of a person's intelligence. How quickly and accurately a person can solve simple puzzles has little bearing upon how he or she will perform at theoretical reasoning.

Having a high intelligence means being able to solve difficult puzzles with accuracy, not merely solving simple puzzles quickly and accurately. To retort to this, one may ask why is it that people who are good at solving difficult problems also do well on IQ tests? There is a correlation no doubt. Of course there is, people who are good at solving difficult problems (theoretical work in physics, math or philosophy) will likely also be good at solving easy problems quickly. However, the vice versa of this relation does not hold. People who are good at solving easy problems are not nearly as likely to be good at solving difficult problems. They may simply lack the skills in precise reasoning or imagination to handle difficult problems, even if they can solve simple problems that require few of such cognitive attributes at a lightning speed.

Altogether, its questionable whether IQ tests do measure intelligence as the kind of problems they assign are altogether irrelevant to the kind of puzzles one need to solve in order to be regarded as uncontroversially intelligent.



besides, there are other correlations: people whoose ears are symmetrical have a higher iq on average, and people who can tab their fingers very fast against a hard surface. these things indicate that iq is largely biological as noone would presume that you grow more symmetrical ears from contemplating philosophical problems, would they? :jew:

I've never heard of that, but I wouldn't be surprised to find this in print. After all, you have to remember that these ideas are a sophistication of craniology or a pursuit of discovering correlations between skull size and intelligence. A number of criminologists, and Lambrosso prominently, purported to establish high correlations between a number of physical attributes a person may have and intelligence or even propensity for responsible behavior in society.

Today such studies are known as outdated and mostly inspired by political ambitions rather than the truth-seeking. They have long been known to procure sympathy for racist doctrines. Many of such inquiries have been debunked as fraudulent. It is a remarkable fact of these studies that they aren't taken seriously today, part of it is due to their social stigma no doubt, but more importantly, of course is that thus far no positive correlations between having a certain physical feature and high IQ scores have yet been established and on purely conceptual grounds this idea seems absurd.

Is there any reason to suppose that people of a specific bodily attribute have greater natural intelligence than people of other attributes, barring the fact that blacks tend to score lower on IQ tests than the whites? But then again, its a fact that blacks in America have inferior educational opportunities, it could well be the case that people of 'inferior race and inferior attributes' aren't truly genetically inferior but simply exposed to less advantageous circumstances than the whites are.


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Altogether, you ought to pay closer attention to the reliability of your sources as fraud has long loomed large in the topic of IQ, especially in the question of hereditary intelligence. Even if your source is reliable, don't accept its author's conclusion uncritically as very few scholars who published on the subject refrained from allowing their prejudices to vitiate their arguments.
 

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bluewings argument runs like this:

because earlier incantations of a certain science were wrong, all later incantations of that same science must also be wrong

by extension:

because astrology was wrong, mbti must also be wrong

nice going, bw ;)
 

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Yeah, I get an eery vibe from you, just like I got from my alcoholic ISTP uncle: you must be an ISTP.

No, seriously, vibes are indicators of a type? The gut feelings we get about people tells us something about their nature? In that case we really should give more credence to fortune tellers!

oh no bluewing, tell it like it is!

your analogy makes little sense, and your definitions ("vibes?") make little sense and have no relevance to what i said. i perceive similarities in gestures to my concept of Fe usage. this is Ni at work in conjunction with my own Fe. your conclusions are poor in almost all accounts. you find a premise that you try to bloat to create a conclusion that is exaggerated and irrelevant. it makes you look in between unintelligent and crazy. and it is extremely ineffective in persuading others (which you so desperately hope to do) unless your audience is comprised of people who are going to be gentle and kind bc they are predominant F types anyway and don't want to make you feel badly about yourself. or you take up the ludicrous cause of attacking the usage of myers briggs on a myers briggs site and acting like an advocate for the crotchety republican contingency who follow your views (oh look how disenfranchised we are with this, the whole world is going to hell and a handbasket, etc).

maybe you should take up a career in writing or get your masters in rush limbaughism.
 

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bluewings argument runs like this:

because earlier incantations of a certain science were wrong, all later incantations of that same science must also be wrong;)

No, if a certain 'science' has the same structure as one that has been refuted multiple times before, there is a good reason to suspect that it is refutable also.

because astrology was wrong, mbti must also be wrong

nice going, bw ;)

MBTI is wrong, but not for the same reason as astrology is as the two studies don't have the same essence. Astrology defines a person on the basis of his birthday, MBTI on the basis of personality traits that he sometimes shows. Yet measuring intelligence in accordance to skull measuring or the shape of one's ears does have the same structure: intelligence correlates highly to a certain physical feature of a person's immediately observable body. Since all other such arguments were unsuccessful, there is no good reason to believe that this one will be. Besides, why would one even think that a person's natural intelligence is connected to the shape of his ears? Is having long ears in any way helpful to solving complex problems? Why not conjecture that people who have the longest or symmetrically long eye-lashes are the best athletes and call that serious science?
 

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oh no bluewing, tell it like it is!

your analogy makes little sense, and your definitions ("vibes?") make little sense and have no relevance to what i said..

I don't think that's true. A vibe is a feeling, or that is at least its conventional definition, it is very relevant to what you said.

i perceive similarities in gestures to my concept of Fe usage..your conclusions are poor in almost all accounts...you find a premise that you try to bloat to create a conclusion that is exaggerated and irrelevant. .[/.

I am incapable of understanding of what 'Fe usage' is as on this forum its too vaguely and inconsistently defined, as it is on a typical MBTI website. Perceiving similarities is not the same thing as merely 'sensing vibes' or using feelings to arrive at conclusions about people. My conclusion wasn't exaggerated, it was a response to your claim that you know a person's type on the basis of a vibe or a feeling. So, I reduced that notion to an absurdity by showing that a feeling can lead a person to believe in a host of preposterous notions.

this is Ni at work in conjunction with my own Fe. .


No idea what you mean.


you find a premise that you try to bloat to create a conclusion that is exaggerated and irrelevant. it makes you look in between unintelligent and crazy. and it is extremely ineffective in persuading others (which you so desperately hope to do) unless your audience is comprised of people who are going to be gentle and kind bc they are predominant F types anyway and don't want to make you feel badly about yourself. or you take up the ludicrous cause of attacking the usage of myers briggs on a myers briggs site and acting like an advocate for the crotchety republican contingency who follow your views (oh look how disenfranchised we are with this, the whole world is going to hell and a handbasket, etc)..


Very eloquent thank you. Have you ever considered a carrier in poetry or fiction writing?

maybe you should take up a career in writing or get your masters in rush limbaughism.

I earn my living by writing today; don't know if I want to get a Master's degree however: its very expensive, has low instrumental value at the job market and won't teach me a great deal that I can't learn on my own.
 
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Blackwater

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No, if a certain 'science' has the same structure as one that has been refuted multiple times before, there is a good reason to suspect that it is refutable also.

that's right. before flight, many inventors tried to make various types of aircraft. the general structure was the same: conquer the skies. all failed. therefore, we should be suspicious of mordern airlines as well ;)

Yet measuring intelligence in accordance to skull measuring or the shape of one's ears does have the same structure

no because skull shape is mostly a genotypical phenomenon whereas symmetry is a result of both genotype and phenotype.

Besides, why would one even think that a person's natural intelligence is connected to the shape of his ears?

the reasoning is actually quite simple: intelligence is a biological function and thus it follows that people have the requisite good genes to start with and who have had an unbrigning rife with solid nutrition and an absense of disease and parasites will develop a wholesome expression of these genes _irregardless_ of exposure to art and philosophy. (general reading and other mental tasks will stimulate mental development, not determine it. at it does not have to be philosophical in the least. doctors and fighter pilots have high intelligence yet are not philosophical)
 

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that's right. before flight, many inventors tried to make various types of aircraft. the general structure was the same: conquer the skies. all failed. therefore, we should be suspicious of mordern airlines as well ;))

We should have been until one successful instance of an aircraft has become known. So, lets be suspicious of all intelligence theories that link a certain bodily feature with cleverness potential until we find some reason to regard at least one of theories as plausible.



no because skull shape is mostly a genotypical phenomenon whereas symmetry is a result of both genotype and phenotype.)

Why should we think that something that is resultant of both genotype and phenotype has anything to do with cleverness? I've read a short wikipedia article on phenotype and there it has been defined as a trait thats resultant of both genes and environment. Something that is a phenotype and a genotype is a redundant proposition as a phenotype by definition includes a genotypical element. Symmetry is a phenotype, that is its a result of a person's experiences with the environment to some degree? What on earth does all of this have to do with the claim that intelligence is largely innate, and that a person's symmetry of ears suggests that he is innately intelligent. This seems to be contradicting what you've mainted earlier, that no life experience can make you grow symmetrical ears therefore since symmetrical ears correspond to intelligence, you can't acquire it by experience as you can't acquire symmetrical ears by experience. Now you're saying symmetrical ears are a phenotype, which actually weakens your claim that intelligence is innate. If it is the case that when you grow symmetrical ears you get smarter and its possible for you to grow symmetrical ears, its also possible to become smarter, that of course is if we accept the ridiculous claim that when you become smart your ears are likely to get symmetrical.


the reasoning is actually quite simple: intelligence is a biological function and thus it follows that people have the requisite good genes to start with and who have had an unbrigning rife with solid nutrition and an absense of disease and parasites will develop a wholesome expression of these genes _irregardless_ of exposure to art and philosophy. (general reading and other mental tasks will stimulate mental development, not determine it. at it does not have to be philosophical in the least. doctors and fighter pilots have high intelligence yet are not philosophical)

Intelligence training need not be philosophical or artistic, there are many ways for a person to sharpen his abstract problem solving skills. How does this give us any reason to believe that the person with the 'good genes' has symmetrical ears?
 

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So, lets be suspicious of all intelligence theories that link a certain bodily feature with cleverness potential until we find some reason to regard at least one of theories as plausible.

we already have one. a person who a high iq is (statistically speaking) a person in whom all biological systems are functioning to an above average standard. this also means developing a symmetrical physique



i have no idea what you just said in the middle block of text

but leys say you have a propensity for growing 80% symmetrical ears. after recieving a blow to the head, you now have a 70% chance. symmetry is like icing on the cake: something the body develops if everything else is functioning properly. intelligence is also one of those things but probably lower on the scale than symmetry. thus people will symmetrical ears will on average have a higher iq than the rest of the population.

popularly speaking, lets say you have genes that could develop your iq to maximally 180

things that will detract from that development, such as poor nutrition and blows to the head, will also detract from symmetry
 

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we already have one.

Where? Who authored the study? What is its title? Where was it published?


a person who a high iq is (statistically speaking) a person in whom all biological systems are functioning to an above average standard. this also means developing a symmetrical physique

Why is there a connection between a symmetrical physique and a person's high cognitive functioning? Furthermore, why should we assume that if person functions well biologically, he will function well cognitively? History has documented many instances of geniuses with a highly defective physical predispositions. Kierkegaard and Nietzsche are distinct cases in point.

In short, I see no reason to believe that if person is symmetrical, he functions in a biologically sound way. I also see no reason to believe that there is an underlying essence within a person that causes him to function well in all ways, as it is perfectly conceivable for person to function well in one way and not the other.


a person who a high iq is (statistically speaking) a person in whom all biological systems are functioning to an above average standard

Physical health problems and internal functioning deficiences are common among intellectuals.


i have no idea what you just said in the middle block of text





things that will detract from that development, such as poor nutrition and blows to the head, will also detract from symmetry

Does this mean that a mad scientist rewires my brain and turns me into an idiot, my ears will become less symmetrical? Why would that be the case? What about a peson who becomes asymmetrical because of a physical accident such as losing an ear, would this also detract from his intelligence?
 
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