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  1. #11
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    According to this forum very few ESTJs, ESFJs, ENFJs, ENTJs, and ISJs act, sing, dance, write, or do anything related to the arts or creativity. It also seems like these types don't invent things, run companies (except for ENTJs...ESTJs are best a "middle management"), or appear on Ted.com. Most politicians are evidently ExTPs. Evidently these types do litter Fox News Channel.

    Really people? I don't want a list of EJ and ISJ celebrities, I just want to know how people don't view this as a serious flaw in celebrity typings.
    My profession is in the arts, and I think all the types you listed are represented rather well. I don't know all their test scores, but did have an opportunity to take voice lessons for a short period from a retired metropolitan opera tenor who tested as an ENFJ. From my understanding of it, I think Si is also well represented in musical performers. I think most performers tend to be extroverts, as are most of the types you listed.
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  2. #12
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Buh?

    You asked why ESTJs, ESFJS, ENTJs etc. don't get typed that often as entertainers or artists, and I gave an explanation. It's easy to say that the people on this forum are biased toward their own type or some silly dismissive bollocks, but what's wrong with it simply being "there aren't as many famous celebrity SJs as there are famous celebrity NFs and SPs"? No one is saying they can't be, that's just reading something out of nothing. There aren't that many celebrity NTs either (certainly not compared to SPs and NFs) and you don't see them making this silly observation and calling its bluff.
    The quintessential NT fields (sciences) are dominated by NTs and the celebrated members of these fields are mostly NT.

    SJs are most common in the sectors which are represented by others. For example an SJ working for Mac is represented in media by Steve Jobs, an ENTJ. An SJ working in the entertainment business is represented by a plethora of FP actors/producers/directors.

    NTs have their celebrities, SJs don't.

    I'm not quite ready to say it's a problem but it's certainly not making something of nothing.
    wails from the crypt.

  3. #13
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    The quintessential NT fields (sciences) are dominated by NTs and the celebrated members of these fields are mostly NT.

    SJs are most common in the sectors which are represented by others. For example an SJ working for Mac is represented in media by Steve Jobs, an ENTJ. An SJ working in the entertainment business is represented by a plethora of FP actors/producers/directors.

    NTs have their celebrities, SJs don't.

    I'm not quite ready to say it's a problem but it's certainly not making something of nothing.
    We're talking about entertainers and artists specifically, not just famous types in general.
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  4. #14
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    The reason NTs don't care is that they have their own fields.

    SJs don't, and they have every right to care because of that.
    wails from the crypt.

  5. #15
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Wait, did I miss something? What the hell was the original contention again?
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  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    ...Venturing to become a self-sufficient entertainer or artist is one of the least practical career choices one can make. So right off the bat, that goes against SJ Guardian sensibilities. Also, most people don't grow up in families and communities of entertainers and artists. If this were so, I'd wager we'd see more SJs in the arts, because of peer reinforcement.
    Those are two big items right there.

    Most of the SJs I know were brought up in other lifestyles.
    Entertainment is also a risky career move, it's not a stable job and it involves lots of commitment often to the exclusion of relationships... or at least the relationships have to be a lot "flexier."
    Also, art tends to involve a certain "freeness" inside that I know can scare ISFJs. P's and N's, I think, find it easier to let go and feel the vibes and go with it and explore; SFJs can be far more practical and want to reach a particular outcome and tend to structure the act within, rather than playing with it.
    ISxJs also don't usually like the limelight, they're "behind the scenes" working style.

    If you find the right art medium, maybe things will be easier.
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    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Wait, did I miss something? What the hell was the original contention again?
    I think I was bothering you for chastising the OP for making a petty or bullshit observation
    wails from the crypt.

  8. #18
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Buh?

    You asked why ESTJs, ESFJS, ENTJs etc. don't get typed that often as entertainers or artists, and I gave an explanation. It's easy to say that the people on this forum are biased toward their own type or some silly dismissive bollocks, but what's wrong with it simply being "there aren't as many famous celebrity SJs as there are famous celebrity NFs and SPs"? No one is saying they can't be, that's just reading something out of nothing. There aren't that many celebrity NTs either (certainly not compared to SPs and NFs) and you don't see them making this silly observation and calling its bluff.
    The reason why I disbelieve it is because people have no clue how to type others and base it on the most superficial and sketchy information available. For example, what if artists don't write their own lyrics or write with others? How do you know who's personality is shining through? Many artists have publicists and people that "train" them how to speak for interviews--even though the real person isn't completely obscured, there's still PR training.

    And people realize their pop culture currency. They know the more outrageous and bizarre you are the longer you can stretch that precious 15 minutes.

    Additionally, I think certain forms of entertainment would be more cozy to certain types rather than completely disregarding that type completely. For example, I think many stage and theater performers may be (I)SJ because of the nature of the performance (stability). I also think actors who prefer to stay in television (once again stability) rather than transition to film my indicate a preference. Actors that tend to be regarded as character actors may indicate a type preference rather than saying EJs and ISJs just don't exist in the arts. Also, I think more extroverts would prefer "leading" roles than character roles. I know two ISJ stage managers in the local theater scene that dabble in acting and they're quite good at what they do.

    toonia, brought up the performing arts and that's another good one. Opera singers and professional musicians in orchestras or symphonies, professional dancers (ballet, tap, etc.) often overlooked because they're not in the public eye, but EJs and ISJs don't do these? I know we can only type people we've heard of, but people have a narrow view of the creative arts and how influential the ones we don't necessarily hear about are within their artistic communities.

    I personally think many celebrities typed ExFP are ExFJ and people don't know how to separate general ExFx qualities from ExFP and ExFJ.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I think you're onto something with comments like these:

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    ...think certain forms of entertainment would be more cozy to certain types rather than completely disregarding that type completely. For example, I think many stage and theater performers may be (I)SJ because of the nature of the performance (stability). I also think actors who prefer to stay in television (once again stability) rather than transition to film my indicate a preference. Actors that tend to be regarded as character actors may indicate a type preference rather than saying EJs and ISJs just don't exist in the arts. Also, I think more extroverts would prefer "leading" roles than character roles. I know two ISJ stage managers in the local theater scene that dabble in acting and they're quite good at what they do.

    toonia, brought up the performing arts and that's another good one. Opera singers and professional musicians in orchestras or symphonies, professional dancers (ballet, tap, etc.) often overlooked because they're not in the public eye, but EJs and ISJs don't do these? I know we can only type people we've heard of, but people have a narrow view of the creative arts and how influential the ones we don't necessarily hear about are within their artistic communities.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Those are two big items right there.

    Most of the SJs I know were brought up in other lifestyles.
    Entertainment is also a risky career move, it's not a stable job and it involves lots of commitment often to the exclusion of relationships... or at least the relationships have to be a lot "flexier."
    Also, art tends to involve a certain "freeness" inside that I know can scare ISFJs. P's and N's, I think, find it easier to let go and feel the vibes and go with it and explore; SFJs can be far more practical and want to reach a particular outcome and tend to structure the act within, rather than playing with it.
    ISxJs also don't usually like the limelight, they're "behind the scenes" working style.

    If you find the right art medium, maybe things will be easier.
    Now that I think about it, it probably depends mostly on the culture. In places where ceremony and tradition are inseparably fused with art and entertainment, SJs are probably all about it. But in the West, art and entertainment is mostly secular and almost anti-tradition in some respects. Some part of the 1960s counter-culture stuck around for good.

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