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I_FP and the Fantasy genre

Tamske

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Let's talk about heroes/heroines in the fantasy genre.

It seems to me that most of the main characters in fantasy are either ISFPs or INFPs. Why?

I guess most fantasy world favour Feelers. Especially if magic is emotion-based, like in Harry Potter (you need hate to kill,...)

But why Introvert? Why Perceiving?

Do you know counterexamples? Do they exist? I'd like to read about an ENTP (...) fantasy hero for a change!
 

Orangey

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My (preliminary and terrible) theory is that fantasy stories are not usually deep, psychological studies of one (or a couple) of people; instead, they are usually operatic, involve many characters and storylines, and have little time or space to develop characters in a great amount of detail.

Now, how does this explain the preponderance of IxFP main characters, you may ask? Well, even though there isn't a lot of room for full character development in many fantasy narrative formulas, the main character still needs to be dynamic and not static (meaning, the hero needs to be the one who changes in the story, or grows, as opposed to side characters who can afford to stay the same throughout.) I want to argue that an easy way to make the characters "dynamic" is to make them IxFP, because that is basically a function of their personality, to change and grow. It is a part of their core personality motive (at least INFPs), so if you stick in a character like that, you won't have to work to hard to show that kind of changing and growing tendency.

But I don't know...I just thought of this two seconds ago, so it's mostly off-the-cuff BS.
 

sofmarhof

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I say this as someone who read fantasy in high school so don't take this the wrong way, but I think the popularity of introverted fantasy heroes might have something to do with many fantasy readers being socially outcast high schoolers... seeing a noble loner makes them feel good about themselves. :devil:
 

William K

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I say this as someone who read fantasy in high school so don't take this the wrong way, but I think the popularity of introverted fantasy heroes might have something to do with many fantasy readers being socially outcast high schoolers... seeing a noble loner makes them feel good about themselves. :devil:

Yeah. From the idealistic INFP viewpoint, there is something stirring about seeing an underdog/unknown rising up and becoming a (reluctant) hero. Not that all fantasy novels are this way, but it's a common theme
 

Valiant

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I know one counterexample, at least. The Wheel of Time, my absolute favorite.
It is very innovative, and while related to the rest of the Fantasy genre, it is quite different even in sentiment.

It has a main protagonist, Rand al'Thor. He's hard to type, but I identify more with him than with the ENTJ type. If he'd be subject to a type, he would be an INTJ with social skills, ability to improvise and emotional warmth.
He becomes less and less idealistic, sacrificing much for the greater good. At last using entire nations and peoples as pawns in the battle against true evil.
A nice input in this whole thing is that he also feels a strong contempt against nobility, especially oppressors, and he imposes laws to protect the people. Quite cool...
I'm not going to spoil too much...

The book also has other protagonists, and you also get to read first-hand as some of the main antagonists, which is cool.
The writer of the book, James Oliver Rigney (under the alias Robert Jordan) is a definite INTJ, again with a more mature outlook on emotion than what is generally the stereotype, or what I can see on this forum from people acting the type(or hiding mental illnesses).


Now, there are two other male protagonists.
One, Perrin Aybara, is a definite ISTP. Goodnatured, big, strong. Can communicate with wolves.

The other one, Mat Cauthon, is an ExTP. Hard to say if he's S or N. In the story, it says that he has the ability to read, but that he hadn't read an entire book in his life.
He undergoes some personality changes in a couple of steps, and I think he becomes more ENTP than ESTP after a few books. Very adventurous. A gambler, drinker and later a great general (however unexpected that might seem).


Those three are ta'veren, a name for people in this fantasy universe who instead of being guided by fate shapes it around themselves. Like a knot in a weave.

There are a few non-ta'veren characters as well that the books revolve around... Some of them can be quite hard to type as they are all strong, strong characters out of the ordinary with a great versatility. They're all women who can "channel", except one called Min Farshaw.

Nynaeve al'Meara - ESFJ (really aggressive though)
Egwene al'Vere - (e?)NTJ
Aviendha - ENTJ (Fire on two legs)
Elayne Trakand - ENFJ
Min Farshaw - ENTP?




As a greatly balanced INTJ, Rigney has written one hell of a story, portraying the events from a great many angles.
The best books I have read, to be quite honest. Those who do not like the Wheel of Time series are nine out of ten times people who haven't the patience to sit down and read fourteen plus brick-thick books with an advanced language.
The books are appealing to intelligent readers as well as casual pleasure readers who don't prefer to think much or read between the lines.
They certainly provide much pleasure to read just straight off, but things happening in the first books are definitely worth taking into account in the tenth book when trying to figure out what is going to happen.
You can also notice people lying, betraying, conspiring and all sorts of things all through the books without it ever being plainly evident until much later, if you didn't remember some vague detail from a few books back.
I'd say that James Oliver Rigney was a damn genius for writing those amazing pieces of literature.

The books both values idealism and emotion as something good, at the same time as it is something hindering in the fight against the shadow.
It's not INFP or ISFP fantasy by any measure. It's NTJ fantasy! :D
 

Orangey

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I say this as someone who read fantasy in high school so don't take this the wrong way, but I think the popularity of introverted fantasy heroes might have something to do with many fantasy readers being socially outcast high schoolers... seeing a noble loner makes them feel good about themselves. :devil:

Yeah. From the idealistic INFP viewpoint, there is something stirring about seeing an underdog/unknown rising up and becoming a (reluctant) hero. Not that all fantasy novels are this way, but it's a common theme

So you guys are saying that fantasy writers pander to their audience in this regard?
 

simulatedworld

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Fantasy favors Fi, not Fe.

The running theme that works very well for fantasy/fiction in general is that if you do what you know in your heart is right then things will always work out for you.

This works especially well with the ISFP model's secondary Se, where "just doing what feels right in the moment" is glorified and always rewarded. (See Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, etc.)

Fantasy does not tend to glorify Fe as much because doing something for any reason other than "knowing in your heart that it's right" doesn't really fit with the Fi-themed moral scheme characteristic of so much fantasy/fiction.
 

William K

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I think it might be a bit overgeneralizing to try and lump the whole fantasy genre. After all, to me it's just a setting for the story, and there are plenty of different takes on it.
 

Orangey

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Fantasy favors Fi, not Fe.

The running theme that works very well for fantasy/fiction in general is that if you do what you know in your heart is right then things will always work out for you.

This works especially well with the ISFP model's secondary Se, where "just doing what feels right in the moment" is glorified and always rewarded. (See Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, etc.)

Fantasy does not tend to glorify Fe as much because doing something for any reason other than "knowing in your heart that it's right" doesn't really fit with the Fi-themed moral scheme characteristic of so much fantasy/fiction.

Yeah, but this doesn't explain why there is a connection in the first place between fantasy and Fi-based narrative schema. All you've explained here is what is.
 

sofmarhof

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So you guys are saying that fantasy writers pander to their audience in this regard?

Well, it's not my final answer. I'm just answering questions before I've decided whether I actually agree with my own suggestion again.
 

sofmarhof

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Related question: What percentage of protagonists in every novel ever are introverted?
 

Valiant

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He was, not is. Sad loss...

I know, it's a typo. So bloody sad :( I didn't even feel much sadness when David Eddings passed, but when he died I almost cried.
Good thing that he left lots and lots of material to finish the story.
 

simulatedworld

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Yeah, but this doesn't explain why there is a connection in the first place between fantasy and Fi-based narrative schema. All you've explained here is what is.

Well, I think it plays into people's idealism--we all like to believe that being honest and true to your conscience will lead to saving the day and getting the girl. That's almost universally appealing because we'd like it to be true even if it isn't really--this doesn't just apply in the fantasy genre, but across fiction in general.

Also a lot of fantasy writers are INFPs, which I think is because they're Ne types (usually into creative self-expression) and so they combine that creative bent with a desire to promote the values that are important to them through the themes of their work.
 

William K

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I know, it's a typo. So bloody sad :( I didn't even feel much sadness when David Eddings passed, but when he died I almost cried.
Good thing that he left lots and lots of material to finish the story.

Yeah. Haven't read any of Brian Sanderson's work before and I can't tell which parts of "The Gathering Storm" are his and not Jordan's, but I liked it though mainly because I like Egwene's part of the story.
 

Orangey

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Well, I think it plays into people's idealism--we all like to believe that being honest and true to your conscience will lead to saving the day and getting the girl. That's almost universally appealing because we'd like it to be true even if it isn't really--this doesn't just apply in the fantasy genre, but across fiction in general.

Also a lot of fantasy writers are INFPs, which I think is because they're Ne types (usually into creative self-expression) and so they combine that creative bent with a desire to promote the values that are important to them through the themes of their work.

Yeah, this is most likely the case.
 

sleepy

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I know one counterexample, at least. The Wheel of Time, my absolute favorite.
It is very innovative, and while related to the rest of the Fantasy genre, it is quite different even in sentiment.
I also enjoyed this series greatly, at least the 5-6 first books, then if became boring, and didn't read the last few books.

Other popular series from the top of my head, that I think is even better is Malazan Book of the Fallen and my probably favorite A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE.

I'll have to think about if the characters are either ISFP or INFP. That would explain why I like them so much. But there is A LOT of characters in these series, so kinda doubt they are all these awesome types :p
 

Tamske

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Wheel of Time... I've begun a few times and couldn't get through. I'm sorry... not a fan.

Is it really necessary for fantasy to 'favour' Fi?
I mean, there is really awesome fantasy out there, but to me there are two sides to it.

1) The 'love conquers evil' Fi side. Quite okay with this, but I'm looking for something new.

2) Dragons, magic,... you name it. Love this!

Does that have to occur at the same time?

Or, more relevant to my case, if I create a story where (2) is fulfilled but love doesn't enhance magic at all; love has only the effects it also has in the real world,...would you still call it fantasy?

My 'fantasy' world is based on a sort of magic that is as indifferent to morality as the laws of physics in this world. You can use the same magic for good and for evil. You can kill by accident... You get stronger at magic by exercise, not by knowing yourself... In short, it's an ENTP world. With an ESTJ heroine in it:D Can this still be called fantasy? If not, what should I call it?
 

Snuggletron

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Fi is very heroic, I think. Justice, Chivalry, etc. Although, I still think there is a very evil side to Fi, if your values are evil ones.

Related question: What percentage of protagonists in every novel ever are introverted?

answering this would require A LOT of reading and I can't even finish one book. Either way I don't think it would be any special variable. Although IMO the introverted hero tends to be a bit more reluctant to commit to being a hero at first.
 

Tamske

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Fi is very heroic, I think. Justice, Chivalry, etc. Although, I still think there is a very evil side to Fi, if your values are evil ones.
I've got an INFP villain - not 100% evil, but so 'out of the world' that he'd blow up the universe to cleanse his soul. :D

Although IMO the introverted hero tends to be a bit more reluctant to commit to being a hero at first.
Which is a staple in fantasy... the hero who has to "accept his destiny". Just imagine an ESTJ "chosen one":
"So I've got to kill Evil One and I'm the only one who can do it? ENTP, I want that gun you're talking about operational by Friday. I've got to find my true love first? Okay, I'll get on it now. I don't really understand what it has to do with the matter, but I'll play by the rules. INFJ Mentor, stop speaking in riddles and just tell me what to do."
The story would be over in fifty pages :D
 
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