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  1. #21
    Senior Member sofmarhof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    The main thing that rules out an NT for me, though, is again the fact that Wilde was so comfortable and skillfull in writing about deep emotions. The Happy Prince is one of the most "feeling" books I've ever read (easily comparable to INFP Andersen's fairy-tales, but more symbolic), and I would have yet to encounter another NT who would be able of this (they usually don't aspire to do this in the first place). INTJs and ENTPs do come close sometimes, but still, not quite. The whole point of The Happy Prince is to provoke strong emotions and subsequent change, which is an NF, specifically NFJ, area. I think that The Picture of Dorian Gray is primarily based on emotions as well. However, NTs primarily want to provoke thoughts, feeling tends to be secondary.
    I don't find this convincing. He wrote his children's stories relatively late in his life, when most people have hopefully matured and developed their lesser functions. He wrote the stories specifically for his own children, so it makes sense he would communicate in a very emotional way.

  2. #22

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    I don't think you can look as these things as simply as saying what someone writes matches a type. People often write to express what they would not normally say to society. They might document what they normally say, but the passion to re-express it is less. Writing is also something for a writer to hide behind, something that allows them to go beyond their normal self and take more risks. In Oscar Wilde's case this risk element seems obvious. He is making waves and enjoying it.

    I think the style of the writing can say something though. The big question for me is, "is the Se in his writing real or is it mimicked?", because the focus on detail is undeniable. The other key themes seem to be people, society, irony, and life. This doesn't suggest F type, because we all know people are one of the most interesting topics. I was guessing ISTP because it has that observant nature to it. They notice all these amusing little nuances.

    The other thing I felt like saying is that sometimes the people we find most interesting and insightful when they express themselves are not of our own type. Our own type can be too similar to be that intriguing.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  3. #23
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I'm sold on ENFJ . I've had a hard time pinning him also, and ENTP just never seemed right. I actually thought INFJ originally, but I can't see introvert for him after all. His witty humor always feels similar to Morrissey (an INFJ), who is greatly influenced by Wilde.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #24
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    I don't think you can look as these things as simply as saying what someone writes matches a type.
    This is something I have to fundamentally disagree about. I'm convinced that only writing, or art in general, can fully disclose the artist's type. It's because art is a product of one's imagination, an integral part of one's inner life, one of the few things that mirror our inner processes, which are the only thing that truly matters when typing people, imo. It's only books and movies alone that made me, for example, understand the difference between Ni and Ne. Also, when I was creating a novel with my INTP best friend, it was the time when the complementary nature of our Fi and Ti became the clearest; it was never so prominent in real life. These are just random examples, but it's something I confirm everyday. In typology, behaviour doesn't matter. Inner life matters. Imagination = the best product of inner life I can imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn
    People often write to express what they would not normally say to society. They might document what they normally say, but the passion to re-express it is less. Writing is also something for a writer to hide behind, something that allows them to go beyond their normal self and take more risks. In Oscar Wilde's case this risk element seems obvious. He is making waves and enjoying it.
    Yes. In other words, it documents who we really are inside, not the face we show to society. Who we really are = our type.

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn
    The big question for me is, "is the Se in his writing real or is it mimicked?", because the focus on detail is undeniable. The other key themes seem to be people, society, irony, and life. This doesn't suggest F type, because we all know people are one of the most interesting topics. I was guessing ISTP because it has that observant nature to it. They notice all these amusing little nuances.
    Yeah, the bolded part is actually something I was also wondering about. Theoretically it's possible (he might do that to "fulfill the symbolism program" or something, even though I don't find it too likely), but I have to say that if he only mimicks Ni+Se he's doing it pretty damn well. I know I as a Ne user would never be able to do that, no matter how hard I tried.

    "People, society, irony and life" - I don't know why an NFJ shouldn't be interested in these topics. Observing little nuances also doesn't necessarily exclude one type or another - ENFJs often really enjoy it as well, in my experience.

    In fact, personally I don't see your ISTP typing as that much off, because an ENFJ and an ISTP share all the cognitive functions. But I don't see him as an introvert at all, his extraverted feeling was hardly inferior, and I see more Ni than Se in him - some of his works are way too symbolic.


    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn
    The other thing I felt like saying is that sometimes the people we find most interesting and insightful when they express themselves are not of our own type. Our own type can be too similar to be that intriguing.
    I definitely agree on this one. There is a good reason why almost all my favourite writers are Ni users (usually INFJs).
    Her head hung down
    Gazed at earth, finally keen,
    As the rabbit at the stoat,
    Till the earth was sky,
    Sky that was green,
    And brown clouds passed
    Like chestnut leaves along the ground.

    - SUSAN ANN AND IMMORTALITY, T. E. Hulme

  5. #25
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    seriously? think harder. benjamin franklin. or any other myriad of entp inventors. people who create fucking crazy ideas.
    I'm not even 100% convinced that Ben Franklin is ENTP. He's an NT for sure, but he might be one of the other NT's.

    Oscar Wilde on the other hand is the embodiment of ENTP. If I had to sum up ENTP in one word it would be "clever". ENTP's really like to be clever. Oscar Wilde is extremely quotable, and all of his quotes are known for being clever. People don't quote him for saying things like "Give me liberty or give me death." Instead they quote him for things like "Democracy is simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people."

    I've seen several of his plays and they are all full of witty ENTP dialogue. The plot of "The Importance of Being Earnest" is really about a bunch of people who raised wasting time to an art form. (What is more ENTP than that?) Even when you look at say the emotional impact he gives through Dorian Grey, you have to realize that much of Dorian Grey's escapades mirror his own. He's writing from personal experience. (Wilde was known for being quite lecherous.)

    Even on his deathbed he said, "Either that wallpaper goes, or I do." While lots of people are capable of making a joke on their deathbed, only an ENTP would actually choose to.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm not even 100% convinced that Ben Franklin is ENTP. He's an NT for sure, but he might be one of the other NT's.

    Oscar Wilde on the other hand is the embodiment of ENTP. If I had to sum up ENTP in one word it would be "clever". ENTP's really like to be clever. Oscar Wilde is extremely quotable, and all of his quotes are known for being clever. People don't quote him for saying things like "Give me liberty or give me death." Instead they quote him for things like "Democracy is simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people."

    I've seen several of his plays and they are all full of witty ENTP dialogue. The plot of "The Importance of Being Earnest" is really about a bunch of people who raised wasting time to an art form. (What is more ENTP than that?) Even when you look at say the emotional impact he gives through Dorian Grey, you have to realize that much of Dorian Grey's escapades mirror his own. He's writing from personal experience. (Wilde was known for being quite lecherous.)

    Even on his deathbed he said, "Either that wallpaper goes, or I do." While lots of people are capable of making a joke on their deathbed, only an ENTP would actually choose to.
    I'm sorry but this is really not a good argument either.

    I agree that ENTPs are normally associated with being clever, but that definitely doesn't mean that being clever and witty is reserved for ENTPs. I can certainly imagine an ENFJ who would be just as witty; in fact, I know one. Plus, I can think of several INFJ writers whose sense of humor is strikingly similar to Wilde's. OrangeApples mentioned Morrissey; Angela Carter is another example.

    Being "lecherous" is not reserved for ENTPs either. I've known a couple of ENFJs with very, let's say, adventurous lifestyle, and even if I didn't, lifestyle doesn't necessarily have anything to do with cognitive processes.
    Her head hung down
    Gazed at earth, finally keen,
    As the rabbit at the stoat,
    Till the earth was sky,
    Sky that was green,
    And brown clouds passed
    Like chestnut leaves along the ground.

    - SUSAN ANN AND IMMORTALITY, T. E. Hulme

  7. #27
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    I'm sorry but this is really not a good argument either.
    I know it doesn't look like a good argument to you, because you don't know what an ENTP is. Therefore you will not be able to identify one.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I'm sold on ENFJ . I've had a hard time pinning him also, and ENTP just never seemed right. I actually thought INFJ originally, but I can't see introvert for him after all. His witty humor always feels similar to Morrissey (an INFJ), who is greatly influenced by Wilde.
    do you think morrissey is a 4w3 or a 4w5? i see leonard cohen as like right smack in the middle of these two characters. i can see him as infj somewhat, but i probably lean toward enfj 4w3 for him as well. i'm also wondering if dylan thomas is/was a 4w3?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Oscar Wilde on the other hand is the embodiment of ENTP. If I had to sum up ENTP in one word it would be "clever". ENTP's really like to be clever. Oscar Wilde is extremely quotable, and all of his quotes are known for being clever.
    Oscar was exceedingly witty, and ENFPs are far wittier than ENTPs.

    Clever, when used to describe ENTPs, applies, and it means something quite different from the verbal virtuosity found in some very bright ENFPs--clever refers to the ability of ENTPs to create logical arguments for any side, no matter how absurd, to invent creative new technology, whether it involves software, beating existing drug testing systems (Victor Conte), social wackiness (Timothy Leary), whatever.

    Oscar used his Ne in a very self-centered, heartfelt manner. He was anything but detached. His writing boils over with introverted feeling...he was a true romantic, which belies his bluster (perhaps why some view him as a Ti)...

    This is not the work of an ENTP: De Profundis by Oscar Wilde

  10. #30
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    do you think morrissey is a 4w3 or a 4w5? i see leonard cohen as like right smack in the middle of these two characters. i can see him as infj somewhat, but i probably lean toward enfj 4w3 for him as well. i'm also wondering if dylan thomas is/was a 4w3?
    I think 4w5...and I see Morrissey solidly on the introverted side.

    His lyrics seem very INFP at times actually (no surprise he is often typed as one), and I suppose this suggests he is a feeling dominant, but in interviews, he comes across differently.

    I just cannot see a Fi-dom or a Fe-dom having this sort of epiphany:

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrissey
    Something within me triggered the understanding that absolutely nothing matters. This came from a lifelong worrier. I always over-worried about everything, and over-analyzed, and thought really too deeply about every aspect of life. Then suddenly I thought, well how can anything possible matter? It doesn't give one license to be violent or erratic or destructive, but nothing actually matters, and I say that with half a giggle, but it's true.

    I mean, it's not as if any of us are of any particular importance. We are just matter floating around the universe, and anything we say or do has practically no bearing on anything. So why fold yourself in a ball of confusion about life?
    Okay...sorry to derail the Wilde thread
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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