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  1. #31
    Dali
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    Take it from one; Jake is an ISFP like Colonel Quaritch is an ENFP.

  2. #32
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Aside from the frustration here, I'm rather fascinated by how everyone is using the typical "creative/mythos" card to identify someone as an N. ... just sort of watching it all unfold.

    I think if people accept (1) the entire CULTURE speaks in mythos ... which means the SJs will do so as well regardless of lack of N, and (2) then compare Neytiri to Moat (the true intuitive here, and far more ENFJ), the contrast will show a difference in approach and thinking. It is just SJ thinking/processing applied to N-style topical matter.

    Maybe my experience with a lot of religious ISFJs who "speak faith/mythos" all the time and look for signs constantly in the environment, just as Neytiri does, is what is giving me a different view on this one. Religious SFJs can easily "talk the spiritual talk" but they do it in different ways than N's and the underlying attitudes are different, as well as how they respond to signs.

    Note that Moat is far more flexible in her sign interpretation than Neytiri. With the S types, as soon as a sign comes into being, they tend to take it at face value and in a predetermined fashion. N's are far more fluid in their handling of signs.

    The biggest: Jake, once he became Turok-Mak-Toh, flipped from hero to villain and most of the SJ culture did not even have to think twice about it; the gods had spoken. The N's, especially Ni people, I think were far more aware of the implications of his actions and the choices that went into them. When everyone turned on Jake at the tree, who came back to him and let him go? Moat. She was the one who looked past the sign (Jake "using" the people) and saw his heart and heard the earnestness in his voice. Neytiri wasn't any better than the others; first she felt violated ("I trusted you, because you did and said all the 'right things' to show you were one of my people, and now I find that you knew my people would be destroyed" and then "Get away, you are not one of us.") How much more SFJ can you get?

    SJ's tend to see signs and behaviors as facts; N's see signs as indicators and fluid at that.

    Again, look beyond the fact she can speak in mythic language (which is external and learned) and look at how she actually behaves and what she values.
    I agree with you about the nature of the culture being very "spiritual" Neytiri could very well be an EsFJ or an EnFJ, I honestly don't see her planted very firmly in either territory. I think often with Ni people tend to think of it as mystically and ethereal and I disagree with that interpretation. I see this more with NTJs but I often find them to be very realistic and pragmatic people. Of the two INFJs and one ENFJ I know, only one (INFJ) is the stereotypical N spaz.

    And another thing I noticed, which I've wished wished wished people would talk about more on the forum is extroverted judgment being conflated with Si. I notice people find it difficult to flesh out dom Te/Fe from aux Si/Ni whereas I don't see those same problems fleshing out dom Ti/Fi from aux Ne/Se and the rest. People also have the hardest time telling ESFJs from ENFJs unless the ENFJ or ESFJ is so extreme in one direction that the difference is evident. Even with me and I make no strong claim in either direction, but half of the people here think I'm an ESFJ and the other half think ENFJ. I don't think EJs and their perceiving functions have been as scrutinized as other types so there's less to go on.

    I have a question though: in the same way you find the spirituality of the Na'vi culture to give the appearance of intuitiveness to Neyetri, I say that in a highly sensate culture it's necessary for intuitives to develop at least healthy mid level use of Se and Si.

    For example, I find that in African-American culture there is a greater emphasis on Se, Si, and Fe than even in the larger American culture. Most of the black intuitives I know have highly developed Fe (ever seen a high Fe INTJ? Userhername and Night are the closest approximations on the forum) regardless of their intuitive personality type and the really give off a different vibe than the people here. It's just annoying to me when people hold the extremes of a type as the norms of a type, with little consideration for healthy functional development of non-preferred functions. I think that many people here are the extreme versions of their type.

    Also in the tribal system of the Na'vi, I'd expect to find higher group cohesion because your tribe was your primary and probably only social unit which we refer to as Si. I know that in my African studies classes, the worst thing to be was an outcast from the tribe...not necessarily because of a violation of a Si cultural value but because your chances of surviving alone in "The Bush" were dismal and it was just more expedient and self-preservational to be in the safety of the group and that was assiduously avoided. Plus smaller, homogeneous communities tend to be naturally more tightknit than dispersed and diverse cultures, which still looks like Si.

    Since this forum is mostly NPs, I also think people conflate a lot of NPness with intuitiveness. In the case of NJs, if you are a rather strong extroverted judger in addition to having Ni (and also depending on the strength of the preference for Ni) or if an NJ is comfortable with and plugs deeply into Se I think sign and symbol interpretation tends be more hardlined.

    I guess this just a little microcosm of why the perception dichotomies are harder to glean especially if there's no strong preference for one or the other. I'm happy settle with Neyetri being ExFJ.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #33
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Aside from the frustration here, I'm rather fascinated by how everyone is using the typical "creative/mythos" card to identify someone as an N. ... just sort of watching it all unfold.
    Well to be fair, I probably made my claim sound stronger than it really is for rhetorical effect. I could definitely see ESFJ, though I still think there is more evidence for ENFJ. I'll address your points individually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think if people accept (1) the entire CULTURE speaks in mythos ... which means the SJs will do so as well regardless of lack of N, and (2) then compare Neytiri to Moat (the true intuitive here, and far more ENFJ), the contrast will show a difference in approach and thinking. It is just SJ thinking/processing applied to N-style topical matter.
    It's not just that she spoke in mythos like everyone else...it was one of the most important things to her personally. In his video logs, Jake says that "she's always going on about energy, and how it's only ever borrowed, and must be given back." (That's not word for word, but it's the idea.) You've compared her to Moat, but all that proves is that she's not as intuitive, or is not intuitive in the same way, as her. For completeness one would have to compare her to known sensors as well, like TsuTey. People are calling him ISTJ here, which I basically agree with, and you can see that the differences between him and Neytiri are fairly great. He would have killed Jake on the spot without regard for signs, and even after the spiritual leader had admitted him to their "clan" for training, TsuTey was wary and distrustful of the wisdom of Moat's decision. Neytiri is much more "spiritual" than him, which would lend some credence to an N over S typing, or at least balance out the comparison with Moat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Maybe my experience with a lot of religious ISFJs who "speak faith/mythos" all the time and look for signs constantly in the environment, just as Neytiri does, is what is giving me a different view on this one. Religious SFJs can easily "talk the spiritual talk" but they do it in different ways than N's and the underlying attitudes are different, as well as how they respond to signs.

    Note that Moat is far more flexible in her sign interpretation than Neytiri. With the S types, as soon as a sign comes into being, they tend to take it at face value and in a predetermined fashion. N's are far more fluid in their handling of signs.
    Since when is "flexibility" a sign of N? Isn't that one of the signs of P vs. J?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The biggest: Jake, once he became Turok-Mak-Toh, flipped from hero to villain and most of the SJ culture did not even have to think twice about it; the gods had spoken. The N's, especially Ni people, I think were far more aware of the implications of his actions and the choices that went into them. When everyone turned on Jake at the tree, who came back to him and let him go? Moat. She was the one who looked past the sign (Jake "using" the people) and saw his heart and heard the earnestness in his voice. Neytiri wasn't any better than the others; first she felt violated ("I trusted you, because you did and said all the 'right things' to show you were one of my people, and now I find that you knew my people would be destroyed" and then "Get away, you are not one of us.") How much more SFJ can you get?
    I don't see how her behavior in this instance can be definitively interpreted as SJ and not just FJ.

    First of all, are you saying that Moat was the only Ni individual in the tribe? Because that is the implication of your claim that her behavior (going back to release Jake) separated her as an Ni user from the rest of the tribe.

    Second, Neytiri was offended because she had been decieved by Jake's affection for her into believing that he was an honest advocate of their interests. When he hinted that he may not have been completely honest, she took that as him betraying her. All that says is that she so closely identified with her group (Fe) that she couldn't separate their interests from her own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    SJ's tend to see signs and behaviors as facts; N's see signs as indicators and fluid at that.

    Again, look beyond the fact she can speak in mythic language (which is external and learned) and look at how she actually behaves and what she values.
    Again, it appears (to me at least) that she values her fellow people (or...um...aliens, Navi, whatever) above all else. All this is indicative of is Fe. It is also apparent that she personally values the mythos, because she talks about it a lot. You would expect that she would have a simpler and less personal way of relating to it if she were SJ, sort of like TsuTey does. But she appears to derive a kind of personal pleasure from talking and thinking about all of that "energy" crap. I mean, she was going to be the spiritual leader to take over after Moat, so you'd think she had some propensity for it. She was going to be the shaman.

    Also, she was more than willing to break the "rules" in order to be with Jake and not with her betrothed. This, though arguably insignificant, could point more to N than S (or at least SJ.)

    So I don't know...I could see SJ, but I don't think these things you've mentioned are great indicators.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #34
    Member Aphex's Avatar
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    Jake- ISFP
    Neytiri- ESFJ
    Grace- ENTJ
    Colonel Quaritch- ISTJ
    Parker- ESTJ

  5. #35
    Senior Member mwv6r's Avatar
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    I actually thought Jake Sully was an ISTP. And a dead sexy one at that!!! All that stoic, rugged masculinity, mmmmmmmmmm

  6. #36
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Jake is definitely an ISTP. Not sure where you're getting F.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  7. #37
    Member Aphex's Avatar
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    I thought he was FOR SURE an ISFP. He has an intense well of caring for the Na'vi that no other characters seem to have, and plays the role of the Peacemaker (common ISFP role) throughout the entire film. You don't see him logically analysing his situation much, it seems to mostly be about his feeling.

    I would even go as far as to say that F is his strongest suit, save for Sensing.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphex View Post
    I thought he was FOR SURE an ISFP. He has an intense well of caring for the Na'vi that no other characters seem to have, and plays the role of the Peacemaker (common ISFP role) throughout the entire film. You don't see him logically analysing his situation much, it seems to mostly be about his feeling.

    I would even go as far as to say that F is his strongest suit, save for Sensing.
    That's not true. At the beginning, he doesn't care about the Na'Vi. At first he doesn't seem to be that feeling or value-driven at all, more like curious about everything that happens to him. It's Neytiri who "raises" him and his feeling side, disciplines him - and that suggest to me the ISTP-ENFJ "opposites attract" couple, where Neytiri is Jake's "Mentor" and makes his inferior Extraverted feeling grow strong.
    Her head hung down
    Gazed at earth, finally keen,
    As the rabbit at the stoat,
    Till the earth was sky,
    Sky that was green,
    And brown clouds passed
    Like chestnut leaves along the ground.

    - SUSAN ANN AND IMMORTALITY, T. E. Hulme

  9. #39
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    That's not true. At the beginning, he doesn't care about the Na'Vi. At first he doesn't seem to be that feeling or value-driven at all, more like curious about everything that happens to him. It's Neytiri who "raises" him and his feeling side, disciplines him - and that suggest to me the ISTP-ENFJ "opposites attract" couple, where Neytiri is Jake's "Mentor" and makes his inferior Extraverted feeling grow strong.
    Bingo! The only thing I don't see is the introversion, I can see how he could fit ISTP, but there's nothing that I can see that rules out ESTP. Especially since it would be more realistic for him to become grow Fe wise because it's tertiary. And the way he rushes into things seems far more Se to me than someone who sits back and thinks before he acts.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    That's not true. At the beginning, he doesn't care about the Na'Vi. At first he doesn't seem to be that feeling or value-driven at all, more like curious about everything that happens to him. It's Neytiri who "raises" him and his feeling side, disciplines him - and that suggest to me the ISTP-ENFJ "opposites attract" couple, where Neytiri is Jake's "Mentor" and makes his inferior Extraverted feeling grow strong.
    Yeah, you're actually right. My observational skills mustn't have been up to scratch today.

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