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  1. #21
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...Hardly the kind of attitude I'd associate with INFJ.
    I don't know...
    The INFJs are starting to scare me...

  2. #22
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    I know they do, believe me. But what does that have to do with the price of grace in Romans?
    I meant that whether you consider justification as being by faith alone or otherwise, it doesn't prevent a person from taking a literal, concrete based approach towards it...

    And for clarification that you request... well no, it really would be like going into a theological debate... trying to think of the quickest way to sum up my thoughts on it all... I believe that the word 'justification' and many other words St Paul uses have been used and interpreted other than how he meant them, since his time... I suppose people like Tom Wright have written about it all, if you're interested.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I meant that whether you consider justification as being by faith alone or otherwise, it doesn't prevent a person from taking a literal, concrete based approach towards it...

    And for clarification that you request... well no, it really would be like going into a theological debate... trying to think of the quickest way to sum up my thoughts on it all... I believe that the word 'justification' and many other words St Paul uses have been used and interpreted other than how he meant them, since his time... I suppose people like Tom Wright have written about it all, if you're interested.
    Sorry. Didn't mean to put you on the spot. I was just curious. Thanks for the suggestion.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #24
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    In those days, 'being zealous for God' was a bit of a euphamism for 'a zero tolerance policy towards theological or practical deviance' in which violence and persecution were considered completely justifiable.
    --
    Hardly the kind of attitude I'd associate with INFJ.
    What is the key point in how that differs from your perception of INFJ?

    Current type descriptions seems to make INFJ some sort of a therapeutic character. I'd go for a more free interpretation of character, given the different social structure and possible careers.

    INFJ tries to influence the world by devoting to a system of values and practicing it. This happens through people, expression, communication and whatever means they see fit. This is what I think Paul did.

    I am not sure how the educated men used to handle the information they did. Paul's way seems somewhat less exact than we're used to experiencing in most current disciplines, placing the Ti function perhaps a bit low.

    But now I can't think clearly, I've been up too long. I'll need some sleep.. My expression has already suffered from my lack of sleep in this post.

  5. #25
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Acts ...is just that. Acts. Heh. No I mean it's heavily girded with poetic licence, it was written for a purpose, morale boosting, encouragement, kind of like distributing 'King and Country' magazines through the trenches in World War 1 - not entirely untrue, but a bit of like I say, literary licence and glossing going on there, to further an agenda. I'd use the word 'propaganda' if it didn't have such negative connotations...

    They wanted to portray their movement as big, dynamic, fast growing and stuff, so...


    Yeah, I'd go with INTJ possibly yeah, highly possible. My money's still on ExTJ, with SJ representing the sorta home-boy thing that couldn't adapt to foreign audiences... maybe he was a force to be reckoned with at home and among his own people, but where perhaps an NJ would be able to adapt to a foreign audience, an SJ would be less likely to. But it's a close one, to be sure.
    I don't believe that your analysis is logical. Your comments to me can be summed up as, "All of his ideas came from someone else, the writing style is not his own either, and you can't trust Acts at all, so that's why he's an ESTJ." If you can't type him from the writings, then you simply can't type him. If you do type him from the writings, then he's not going to be ESTJ. Either you can type him from the writings or you can't. You can't say that he's impossible to type and then declare him ESTJ.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    from another thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...I bend like the proverbial reed in order to be what's necessary for my objectives. ....
    reminded me of something someone else said:
    "... I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some."
    1 Corinthians 9:22 ESV


    Maybe Paul was an ENTP?

  7. #27
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I don't believe that your analysis is logical. Your comments to me can be summed up as, "All of his ideas came from someone else, the writing style is not his own either, and you can't trust Acts at all, so that's why he's an ESTJ." If you can't type him from the writings, then you simply can't type him. If you do type him from the writings, then he's not going to be ESTJ. Either you can type him from the writings or you can't. You can't say that he's impossible to type and then declare him ESTJ.
    No no, that's not what I meant at all. When I said that stuff I wasn't saying it to further my own argument for him as ESTJ, but rather by way of explaining why I didn't think yours held water either... lol

    I didn't say impossible though... just difficult - difficult to say, but if you're forcing my hand, ExTJ

    "declare" is a rather strong word too, for what I was doing... lol I'd prefer to say "speculating" or "proposing"
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  8. #28
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    No no, that's not what I meant at all. When I said that stuff I wasn't saying it to further my own argument for him as ESTJ, but rather by way of explaining why I didn't think yours held water either... lol

    I didn't say impossible though... just difficult - difficult to say, but if you're forcing my hand, ExTJ

    "declare" is a rather strong word too, for what I was doing... lol I'd prefer to say "speculating" or "proposing"
    Ok I can buy that. I still favor my ENTP typing, but I can also see why he'd be so hard to type. When you start getting into prominent religious figures typing becomes difficult. Typing Paul would not be as difficult as typing Jesus (but he might be close to that difficult lol). It can still be pretty easy to get yourself into an unresolvable argument.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Ok I can buy that. I still favor my ENTP typing, but I can also see why he'd be so hard to type. When you start getting into prominent religious figures typing becomes difficult. Typing Paul would not be as difficult as typing Jesus (but he might be close to that difficult lol). It can still be pretty easy to get yourself into an unresolvable argument.
    Well yeah it is hard, because of the very nature of faith being something that causes people to, over a long period of time, push themselves outside of their comfort zones and into areas of behaviour, action and thought that are not native to them.

    For example, it's the only thing that could ever get me in touch with my Si!! It's hardly typical ENTP behaviour to voluntarily place oneself under a guardian and a rule of life, to submit to and obey authorities unquestioningly and be happy to spend the rest of their life vowed to this lifestyle... It's only faith in God and my belief that he says it's good for me that makes me do it, and in doing so I discover it's true, and has been very good for me.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    paul: xSTJ, leaning towards E.

    but substitude: you know the deal about paul in one letter saying something to the extent that only jews (ie israel) can be saved and then in another letter to a gentile congregation says that any race can be saved, effectively subordinating the doctrine of israel's salvation (and its exclusivity) to whatever audience he happens to be writing to? what would that be indicative of in terms of MBTI?
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