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  1. #11
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Substitute is, like, a theology and church history machine. IRL.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  2. #12
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The salvation by faith alone thing strikes me as not being an SJ kind of thing. My impression is that SJs are more into concrete acts of duty.
    ...but many I've known in fundamentalist churches and charismatic ones, have taken it as requiring concrete acts of faith by extension of that... such as the ones who claim that if you're not speaking in tongues or rolling around on the floor in tears, you're obviously not filled with the spirit, therefore have not much faith, therefore are not saved... etc etc...

    Anyway, I don't think that's what he was saying... that's just what Martin Luther interpreted him as having said... but here's where we're gonna get into theological debates... which we're not anyway, cos I'm not and I'm sure you don't wanna go there... lol

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I'm curious...
    have you thought about this before or were you just able to command this knowledge to the forefront on the spur of the moment?
    Bit of both... I have obviously studied Paul quite a lot, you can't get away with not doing as a lay minister... but I've never thought of him in terms of MBTI type before just now. Though I have often wondered about his psychology and personality, and pondered on it. Partly because it's certain teachings of his - or interpretations of teachings of his - that are what a lot of people use to justify making my life a misery!! lol

    How does that mesh with Paul being spoken of as not a good public speaker, and being more forceful in his letters than he is in public?
    Maybe he was just ugly... lol

    No, I think maybe, in the areas he was preaching there were well established conventions for public speaking, rhetoric and stuff, which, if he didn't obey those or used 'foreign' ones (to his audience), he might've found it hard to engage his audience. Another thing that causes me to reject the theory of ENTP - these clues that he was not able to adapt to his audiences and really move them in person.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Substitute is, like, a theology and church history machine. IRL.
    I am??
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  3. #13
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I'm curious...
    have you thought about this before or were you just able to command this knowledge to the forefront on the spur of the moment?

    Seems like an awfully convincing argument for ESTJ. I will have to read his letters with that in mind. I know an ESTJ man - a pastor - very commanding in the pulpit.

    How does that mesh with Paul being spoken of as not a good public speaker, and being more forceful in his letters than he is in public?

    "For they say, "His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account."" 2 Corinthians 10:10 ESV
    Hmmm... I had not thought of that quote. That does seem to paint him as an introverted NT rather than an extravert, so that is a point toward INTJ.

    It is hard to talk about Paul's type because it's hard to separate the man from our own personal religious views. I do believe the way that he is portrayed in Acts is very much like an ENTP though: starting churches and then leaving for the next town, adapting quickly to each culture, changing the rules so that Gentiles did not have to follow Jewish law, etc....
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  4. #14
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    It seems like that excerpt is saying that he is more bold in his letters than he is in person.
    That's the one thing that makes me wonder if he truly is ESTJ or not- because the ESTJ pastor I know is a force to be reckonned with in person.

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    INTJ.

    (That is my advice, but I've already had this discussion somewhere before, I think...)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  6. #16
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Hmmm... I had not thought of that quote. That does seem to paint him as an introverted NT rather than an extravert, so that is a point toward INTJ.

    It is hard to talk about Paul's type because it's hard to separate the man from our own personal religious views. I do believe the way that he is portrayed in Acts is very much like an ENTP though: starting churches and then leaving for the next town, adapting quickly to each culture, changing the rules so that Gentiles did not have to follow Jewish law, etc....
    Acts ...is just that. Acts. Heh. No I mean it's heavily girded with poetic licence, it was written for a purpose, morale boosting, encouragement, kind of like distributing 'King and Country' magazines through the trenches in World War 1 - not entirely untrue, but a bit of like I say, literary licence and glossing going on there, to further an agenda. I'd use the word 'propaganda' if it didn't have such negative connotations...

    They wanted to portray their movement as big, dynamic, fast growing and stuff, so...


    Yeah, I'd go with INTJ possibly yeah, highly possible. My money's still on ExTJ, with SJ representing the sorta home-boy thing that couldn't adapt to foreign audiences... maybe he was a force to be reckoned with at home and among his own people, but where perhaps an NJ would be able to adapt to a foreign audience, an SJ would be less likely to. But it's a close one, to be sure.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  7. #17
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Active, visible and people-orientated career would suggest E, but there's strong situational reasons to explain it too. Preaching was just the thing to do if you were a follower of the Christ, no matter what I/E preference. I'd have to find the I/E some other way.

    Many of his teachings comprised of factual, doctrinal as well as value-based views. He spoke much of emotions and made a lot of value judgements, which seemed to motivate him. He was still quite analytical and factual about the feelings involved, making it hard to decide.

    Definitely N more than S, judging from the connections he makes from distant places of the scriptures and his inventive and unusual way to apply the scriptures. He is too comfortable to abandon many literal interpretations to be considered S.

    His letters go to great length, and the influence of his personal presence was being criticized at some point, making me think of I who likes to write, and does so to handle his thoughts. Letters Ti, real-life Fe, suggesting T and F close to each other in preference. These two are ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) and INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se).

    He tended to go explain his doctrinal views in great length, rather than straight-to-point. Such a pondering style, going in circles around the issue, would suggest a P. He was consistent in the general theme of his doctrine, suggesting J. It's hard to use this to decide.

    So did he use Ne or Ni more? Now I'm out of clues.

    ENTP or INFJ, that is as much as I can narrow down now.. terribly tired, must go to sleep

    Ah, I will have to remember how zealous he was before converting to christianity, and how duty-driven afterwards. INFJ!

  8. #18
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Active, visible and people-orientated career would suggest E, but there's strong situational reasons to explain it too. Preaching was just the thing to do if you were a follower of the Christ, no matter what I/E preference. I'd have to find the I/E some other way.

    Many of his teachings comprised of factual, doctrinal as well as value-based views. He spoke much of emotions and made a lot of value judgements, which seemed to motivate him. He was still quite analytical and factual about the feelings involved, making it hard to decide.

    Definitely N more than S, judging from the connections he makes from distant places of the scriptures and his inventive way to apply scriptures. He is too comfortable to abandon many literal interpretations to be considered S.

    His letters go to great length, and the influence of his personal presence was being criticized at some point, making me think of I who likes to write, and does so to handle his thoughts. Letters Ti, real-life Fe, suggesting T and F close to each other in preference. These two are ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) and INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se).

    He tended to go explain his doctrinal views in great length, rather than straight-to-point. Such a pondering style, going in circles around the issue, would suggest a P. He was consistent in the general theme of his doctrine, suggesting J. It's hard to use this to decide.

    So did he use Ne or Ni more? Now I'm out of clues.

    ENTP or INFJ, that is as much as I can narrow down now.. terribly tired, must go to sleep

    Ah, I will have to remember how zealous he was before converting to christianity. INFJ!
    Thanks for your contribution.

  9. #19
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...but many I've known in fundamentalist churches and charismatic ones, have taken it as requiring concrete acts of faith by extension of that... such as the ones who claim that if you're not speaking in tongues or rolling around on the floor in tears, you're obviously not filled with the spirit, therefore have not much faith, therefore are not saved... etc etc...
    I know they do, believe me. But what does that have to do with the price of grace in Romans?

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Anyway, I don't think that's what he was saying... that's just what Martin Luther interpreted him as having said... but here's where we're gonna get into theological debates... which we're not anyway, cos I'm not and I'm sure you don't wanna go there... lol
    I've no intention of debating theology. It's mostly an exercise in sillyness. And I recognize that I surely have some reformation biases going on. How could I not?

    Your take on Paul is that he does not teach salvation through faith alone? I'm asking not to debate, but to see another side of it so I can understand a different point of view from what I've primarily heard. Questions I may ask are for the purpose of clarification, not debate.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #20
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post

    Ah, I will have to remember how zealous he was before converting to christianity. INFJ!
    It was a totally different meaning of 'zeal' than what we mean by the word today, that he espoused in his persecuting days... and which he morphed into later times.

    In those days, 'being zealous for God' was a bit of a euphamism for 'a zero tolerance policy towards theological or practical deviance' in which violence and persecution were considered completely justifiable. The movement he was a part of was the equivalent of today's radical, fundamentalist Muslims who not only persecute other faiths, but even people in their own faith who they don't see as being sufficiently orthodox.

    When he later talked about having 'zeal for Christ', it was kind of a euphamism for 'be single-minded and tolerate no shilly-shallying or vagueness' - in other words 'this is the truth, the only truth, and I don't want anyone making up new interpretations, TYVM'.

    Hardly the kind of attitude I'd associate with INFJ.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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