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  1. #11
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Robespierre:
    "If virtue be the spring of a popular government in times of peace, the spring of that government during a revolution is virtue combined with terror: virtue, without which terror is destructive; terror, without which virtue is impotent."
    One pissed of fellow he was! :horor:
    He wasn't pissed off (per se, he was a revolutionary and radical). He just wanted to bring equality to France, in line with his personal visions of what France could be. And he had the dogged persistence/steamrolling tendencies to accomplish that. I would say he is a good example of how to achieve goals (actually, he is to me), but he faced the guillotine in the end, as well.

  2. #12
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Dear Lauren,

    Time to split some atoms...



    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    He wasn't pissed off (per se, he was a revolutionary and radical). He just wanted to bring equality to France, in line with his personal visions of what France could be. And he had the dogged persistence/steamrolling tendencies to accomplish that.
    (1) OK, so without a time machine neither of us can prove beyond a reasonable doubt EXACTLY what type of mood Robespierre was in when he decided to begin his great regin of terror. BUT - Consider this:

    1. Terrorists are intolerant.
    2. Terrorists believe in moral absolutes.
    3. They draw broad conclusions.
    4. They have their own codes of conduct.
    5. They formulate new language to support their belief system.
    6. Terrorist use extraordinary violence to achieve their political/religious goals, and to desire to have a psychological impact broader than the immediate victims of an attack.

    Do the characteristics above seem like those adhered to by calm, politically righteous, and rational people, OR do they seem like those of a "pissed off" person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I would say he is a good example of how to achieve goals (actually, he is to me), but he faced the guillotine in the end, as well.
    (2) Are you saying that you believe terrorism is a GOOD way to achieve goals OR are you saying terrorism is an EFFECTIVE way to achieve goals?

    To me, there is a vast difference between the two. I myself cannot advocate the killing of innocent civilians via acts of extraordinary violence to achieve a political objective, but if you're cool with that...well...you do have a right to your own opinion.

    Smooches!



    -Alex

  3. #13
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    I myself cannot advocate the killing of innocent civilians via acts of extraordinary violence to achieve a political objective, but if you're cool with that...well...you do have a right to your own opinion.

    Smooches!



    -Alex
    Thanks, glad to hear it.

    . . .

    Viva la Revolucion! Mwahaha!

    (Hey, come on... if I'd consider killing thousands of innocent people to secure a job for myself, how much more do you think I'd do it for a meaningful political objective? Luckily for most of you, I'm not into politics or personal risk. )

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    Link: Logical-intuitive introvert (Robespierre, The Analyst)

    Russian socionics people seem to think this guy was the ultimate example of INTJness. Search for the (badly translated from Russian) LII type descriptions on wikipedia.


    Edit: nuther link

    Link: bad translation

  5. #15
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by User99 View Post
    Link: Logical-intuitive introvert (Robespierre, The Analyst)

    Russian socionics people seem to think this guy was the ultimate example of INTJness. Search for the (badly translated from Russian) LII type descriptions on wikipedia.
    Oh, yeah, that's right... he was the LII archetype. I forgot.

    What's funny is, I always test as LII in Socionics despite always testing as INFJ in MBTI. That could be because my F is only around 60%, and thus the subtle differences in definition are enough to result in a shift for me. Weird, but I guess stranger things happen.

    On top of that, they seem to remove the elements of INTJ that I don't identify with from LII descriptions. Specifically, it's because that belligerent, consistently blunt, crass, willful streak that turned me off of INTJ in the first place is removed, and the emphasized effort to adhere to social rules to maintain the appearance of politeness is added.

  6. #16
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    Compare him to Thomas Jefferson, a man I feel fairly sure was INFJ. My supporting information at the link.

    Quote:
    Jeffersonian Legacies? by Peter S. Onuf
    p.129

    "He was by nature sensitive to criticism and averse to direct conflict. Yet, as was his nature, he transformed his inclinations into maxims, and when they
    Applied to public affairs, they became part of an emergent political culture...

  7. #17
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    First of all LMAO at an ESTP trying to teach me about what's morally "right" and "wrong." I can do that myself quite nicely, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    (1) OK, so without a time machine neither of us can prove beyond a reasonable doubt EXACTLY what type of mood Robespierre was in when he decided to begin his great regin of terror.
    So then why did you say that he was pissed off, since we can't know?

    And I only said he wasn't because it seemed as if you were remarking on him being generally a pissed off person (which wasn't the case according to historical documents), and using that quote as an example.
    *terroristcrap*

    Do the characteristics above seem like those adhered to by calm, politically righteous, and rational people, OR do they seem like those of a "pissed off" person?
    So we are trying to discern his emotional state (at any given point in time, which is what I disagreed with in the first place)? Let me know when you make up your mind.

    (2) Are you saying that you believe terrorism is a GOOD way to achieve goals OR are you saying terrorism is an EFFECTIVE way to achieve goals?
    Neither. Read clearly. I wasn't referring to his actions themselves, but the manner in which he went about them.

    To me, there is a vast difference between the two. I myself cannot advocate the killing of innocent civilians via acts of extraordinary violence to achieve a political objective
    That's nice. Want your "I am a kind and caring person" sticker?

  8. #18
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Lauren Ashley falls into my trap...
    I had to regurgitate what I learned in class this semester at you as I love your retorts. It's been a while since I needlessly irritated you; I couldn't resist.

    I do so love heckling INFJs!

    The life of Robespierre as well as the French Revolution are not topics which I have delved into with any depth. His quote was on a PowerPoint slide in the class I just took, so I decided to lob that at you with some other bullet points to see what happened.

    LMAO at my new sticker!
    I have another sticker that I'll couple this one with; I'll place them on a T-shirt as follows:

    "Even though I don't give a shit about you...
    ...I am a kind and caring person"
    Cheers to you!

    -Alex

  9. #19
    Junior Member Trovador's Avatar
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    I believe that this shows how different is Socionics from MBTI. The archetype of LII, Robespierre, was very, very theistic and moralist, enforcing his ideas over others by force. He tried to enforce his Cult of Supreme Being over the freedom of religion, always justified his actions "for the good of People" and for the preservation of Virtue, and justified the opression and lack of freedom that the Terror brought to ensure "Virtue and Justice".

    More than the credulous and very moralistic views, that are really opposed to the INTJ archetype, the valorization of Virtue over Freedom is the destruction of one of the "INTJ basis": the liberty of thought and the contempt of values, Virtue being one of them.

    Robespierre sounds me like a power-mongering NFJ, despite not having the "right functions". He is something like a self-intituled Prophet, trying to save humanity from its errors by himself - ignoring his antecedents, he sounds me exactly like a ENFJ unhealthly leader.

    Finally, he was moved by what is "good or bad", not by what is "true or false", "useful or not", "efficient or not". This is F, and this was his main motivation.

    --

    By the way, which type do you think for Russeau and Voltaire? I'm not sure for the first one, but Voltaire seems really INTJ for me.

  10. #20
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    I had to regurgitate what I learned in class this semester at you as I love your retorts. It's been a while since I needlessly irritated you; I couldn't resist.
    You don't irritate me. Didn't I say in one of our first conversations that I wouldn't be taking you seriously? People only irritate me when I have a reason to take their comments into serious consideration.

    The life of Robespierre as well as the French Revolution are not topics which I have delved into with any depth. His quote was on a PowerPoint slide in the class I just took, so I decided to lob that at you with some other bullet points to see what happened.
    IOW, you know next to nothing on the man or the subject. Why am I not surprised. Hint: this is why I can't take you seriously.

    But thanks for playing.

    I have another sticker that I'll couple this one with; I'll place them on a T-shirt as follows:
    Nice. I would say to wear it on your forehead so everyone can see just what a nice person you are. But alas, your dunce sticker might be taking up too much space there...

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