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  1. #81
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The thing is, I think he is supposed to be IxFP. That's why he has the music taste & other interests he has. It's all stereotypical INFP stuff. ISFP is ruled out because Se seems totally absent.

    The problem is the characters are actually pretty one-dimensional. The shy, sensitive, idealistic, feeling man is mistakenly written too ISFJ, with a shabby INFP veneer thrown on, so that it doesn't add up. I see the confusion in typing extend IRL - INFP profiles confused with ISFJ behavior. He's certainly too accommodating and not aloof enough to be an INFP. On the other hand, his idealism and imagination run rampant, and he does seem to display that need for authenticity and individuality that colors the INFP's demeanor.

    Not to say that the writers had anything about MBTI in mind, but you see types pretty clearly in movies/TV/books for a reason - we all recognize them on some level as truths about people's personalities. I feel sure they were aiming for an IxFP and just missed the mark (or the actor did). The character ends up feeling underdeveloped.
    you see them going for infp, i see them going for e4. and the actor is an isfj. imagine how much the role would change with an sx infp e4 like heath ledger. his presence, complexity, and inner conflict are so much more expansive. you see joseph gordon levitt in inception as an isfj type character there as well. he's probably so/sx or sp/so?

    i also disagree that all infps are aloof. i think the aloofness has much to do with an inferior so instinct (subtype). and especially sp, which is by nature distance, hard to reach, in its own world, etc. a 4w3 infp so/sx looks way way different. or an so/sx infp 9w1.

    i see e4 as focused on originality. which is a more specific distinction than authenticity. i see our concept of authenticity as mostly being relevant for Fi. Fi produces its own form of reason, and infps trust that reason bc its their most conscious, complex form of experience. authenticity and "true to yourself" definitely has more of a connotation that speaks to trusting one's own experience more than knowledge derived from communication and language experiences/symbols/shared concepts. i think both infjs and infps as 4w5s want to represent the world uniquely, but their firm hold on their first dom cog process and their eventual expansion to incorporate other balancing facets move them away from so completely identifying with their Ni representation or their Fi truths. i'm not sure if the need for individuality you mention, well, if when you say that you mean originality (e4) or authenticity (Fi). infp 9s seem to be very very serious about promoting individual freedom in the sense that one deserves to be able to reason out their own form of truth apart from the collective. this could be a kind of individuality, freedom for individual belief, but they don't seem as intensively absorbed in comparing themselves to others and identifying with all of the differences they find, oscillating between being extremely understanding and extremely critical, trying to find what is ultimately right and wrong at an individual level (the good-evil dualism).

  2. #82
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    you see them going for infp, i see them going for e4. and the actor is an isfj. imagine how much the role would change with an sx infp e4 like heath ledger. his presence, complexity, and inner conflict are so much more expansive. you see joseph gordon levitt in inception as an isfj type character there as well. he's probably so/sx or sp/so?

    i also disagree that all infps are aloof. i think the aloofness has much to do with an inferior so instinct (subtype). and especially sp, which is by nature distance, hard to reach, in its own world, etc. a 4w3 infp so/sx looks way way different. or an so/sx infp 9w1.

    i see e4 as focused on originality. which is a more specific distinction than authenticity. i see our concept of authenticity as mostly being relevant for Fi. Fi produces its own form of reason, and infps trust that reason bc its their most conscious, complex form of experience. authenticity and "true to yourself" definitely has more of a connotation that speaks to trusting one's own experience more than knowledge derived from communication and language experiences/symbols/shared concepts. i think both infjs and infps as 4w5s want to represent the world uniquely, but their firm hold on their first dom cog process and their eventual expansion to incorporate other balancing facets move them away from so completely identifying with their Ni representation or their Fi truths. i'm not sure if the need for individuality you mention, well, if when you say that you mean originality (e4) or authenticity (Fi). infp 9s seem to be very very serious about promoting individual freedom in the sense that one deserves to be able to reason out their own form of truth apart from the collective. this could be a kind of individuality, freedom for individual belief, but they don't seem as intensively absorbed in comparing themselves to others and identifying with all of the differences they find, oscillating between being extremely understanding and extremely critical, trying to find what is ultimately right and wrong at an individual level (the good-evil dualism).
    If we're throwing enneagram into this, then the possibilities certainly expand. I think compared to the average ISFJ, the average INFP will seem aloof. Even a friendly, easy-going e9 ISFP will not come off as warmly expressive as the typical ISFJ. The character was played too ISFJ, which I agree with. I do realize I am an INFP 4w5 sp/sx, and I tend to see INFPs in that light...but considering the character is not particularly complex, I don't really want to over-think it. I think the character is face-value and should be taken as such. INFPs are generally less gregarious than ISFJs, with exceptions, but this character is not meant to be one (although he ends up being one...).

    I think the character wants to be both original and authentic, but I see more interest in authenticity than originality. He has hints of elitism at times concerning originality - in the bar when he griped about the style of so many women he sees as mainstream & shallow. Deschanel seems more original to him - this is preferred. But at the same time, he very much wants to identify with a certain image - IDK, that can be e4 also. His sensitive Smiths fan image is not particularly original though, but when compared to the average person, it sort of is.

    He has his dramatic outburst at work in which he proclaims all greeting cards as BS, or basically, inauthentic expressions of feeling. Call it originality, authenticity, or individuality, he shows a strain of something more closely associated with an INFP than ISFJ, yet his general demeanor does not add up.

    INFP e4 may be the aim, or just e4, but in any case, it was not pulled off convincingly enough.

    I don't think they were vying for an INFJ e4, basically because INFJs get the stereotypes this character is given a lot less. No one seems to see Ni-dom in this character, for whatever reason (well, because he isn't...). ISFPs aren't usually portrayed quite so...dorky.

    And despite all of this criticism, I can't dislike the movie because it has a character performing a Pixies song for karaoke & Zooey Deschanel is enviably stylish, even if contrived .
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #83
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't think they were vying for an INFJ e4, basically because INFJs get the stereotypes this character is given a lot less. No one seems to see Ni-dom in this character, for whatever reason (well, because he isn't...). ISFPs aren't usually portrayed quite so...dorky.
    very true.

    And despite all of this criticism, I can't dislike the movie because it has a character performing a Pixies song for karaoke & Zooey Deschanel is enviably stylish, even if contrived .
    it is a great zooey role, for sure. she knows how to play it.

  4. #84
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    His sensitive Smiths fan image is not particularly original though, but when compared to the average person, it sort of is.
    The guy liked Ringo of all the Beatles, and plays the Smiths all day. There is nothing sort of about it. At some point, I feel like the movie just left a bad taste in people's mouths because of the "image" of the characters, not the actual plot or point.

  5. #85
    Glycerine
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    I felt like it dragged on and on.

  6. #86
    figsfiggyfigs
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    ^ agree.

    at the end, I was like "...wtf "

  7. #87
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
    The guy liked Ringo of all the Beatles, and plays the Smiths all day. There is nothing sort of about it. At some point, I feel like the movie just left a bad taste in people's mouths because of the "image" of the characters, not the actual plot or point.
    Hey, I listen to Smiths all day....and I cry

    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #88
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    You are a girl.

    And I appreciate that.

  9. #89
    Member EnflamedHeartofSand's Avatar
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    Summer is a mirror throughout the whole movie, she gives him exactly what he gives her. When he expresses hope, she becomes open to the possibility of what that hope can entail. Perfect example, is when he describes his belief in true love, she believes that he believes it, and becomes intrigued by what it is he may believe. The second example is when he first introduces her to his favorite spot, she's curious as to why this is his favorite spot, not really intrigued by any of his reasons until he finally says something like, "If I could design this place, I would make people have interest in the architecture of this city"...she wants to know how he is going to do that. The only time she is interested in anything he has to say is when he is completely original and expressing some kind of desire that is unconventional and not of this world in a sense. In fact, I don't remember what architect he names when he is describing his favorite, during the beginning stages of their relationship, but I bet that is another clue regarding what she envisions her future will be like with him..if he was a more visionary, other worldly architect, then she would probably see more depth to their potential, but most likely, since he is describing some building in Los Angeles, it is probably a very modernist architect who wasn't much of a "visionary". This is how she comes to see him eventually, I think, she is no longer surprised by him at all....he does everything she expects him to do and that is when she is over him...he is no longer basking in the moment as she has conditioned herself to do.

    Of course if she were truly basking in the moment and living in "the eternal presence", then she wouldn't need to be a mirror, but would rather be reflecting the glory of the universe, to speak in ambiguous terms so as not to offend anyone. She doesn't have that eternal presence though, so by necessity of gaining some feeling in life, she mirrors other's perceived feelings, looking for someone that is genuinely authentic. At first she believed Tom to be authentic but soon found that he was under the pattern of his own illusion, which she, earlier in life had already overcome.

    Which brings me to him, I found it interesting that at the most pivotal moment of the movie, from his perspective, the part when she allows him into her home, and begins to tell him stories about her past...the narrator curiously begins speaking?? Why, I ask? It's because he's not even paying attention to what she is saying, he is too busy thinking he has finally achieved his goal of obtaining "the one". In other words, he really is under an illusion of love that is completely self centered and really has nothing to do with her.....she fits some image of who he wants to be. He doesn't really see her for who she is. This to me, indicates the movie real stance on "true love"....there is no "one" out there that destiny provides....the movie does a very good job of revealing that desires between people are always destined for disillusionment. Summer knows this, but doesn't know why or how she knows it.

    She can't explain to others who she really is, because she thinks it would be horrifying to them, which is why she marries the guy who asks her about "picture of Dorian Gray". First off, he makes the first move, big turn on for her, second, he asks about Dorian Gray which would insinuate he read it, and if he read it, may mean he is aware of the darker aspects of the human personality, which she now knows to be true about herself, after having tried to believe in love, unsuccessfully, with Tom, and feeling nothing. Tom is perplexed because he believes that she finally believes in love, but she never admits that, she simply says that she knew something with her fiance, that she never knew with him....

    It's hard to figure out Summer's personality type because, what she exhibits isn't exactly who she is....she has no feelings, but maybe she has no feelings because she recognizes how drastic her feelings are and needs to keep them in check by completly cutting them off. My guess is ISFP.

    If Tom resembles an INFP, I think it's only because he has caught the INFP bug by infection. I don't think he is introspective enough to maintain the INFP Idealistic vision, most likely he will begin to conform to a hard nosed outlook. The moment he meets Autumn, doesn't necessarily mean he has found his true love after all, more likely he has fallen back into his own illusion. That's what I take the cartoon drawing of the tree being colored in autumn colors to mean.

  10. #90
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Well some depth. Isn't there because the story didn't call for it. As character driven as the story is, the story is more prominent.

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