Sylvia Plath

[Siúil a Rúin]

I realize she isn't a popular culture figure in line with this subforum's title, but her type would be interesting to explore. I realize she had some potential emotional disorders, but even with that i found her to resonate with me as an INFJ. When i watched the biography of her life she resonated in many many ways, but seemed like a more extreme example. This was a mostly intuitive impression. I would have to go back and analyze it step by step to make a definitive case. I guess i remember the types of scenarios that caused her to shut down, the way in which she was driven, the types of fears she had, etc. It may be disturbing to say, but i find myself very much like her, only not to the anxious, pathological extremes. INFJs are called the most poetic types. We may find a few of us hidden amongst the poets?

What say ye?

 

[Littlelostnf]

INFP

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

INFP

That is definitely plausible. It crossed my mind as well. Hopefully we can dig into a meaningful analysis. Plath is especially interesting in this regard. I'm trying to find some info online to see if anyone has put effort into typing her. I'll continue to look.

Back with a little more research. Her bipolar disorder definitely throws a monkey wrench in a strictly MBTI analysis. The intensity of her emotional expression is a good case for Fi dominant. She has some emphasis on the use of symbols which is a bit more Ni, but by no means exclusive. It could be a mistake to attempt anything too definitive with an individual who suffered mental illness, but INF seems like a pretty strong case to me. I could also accept INFP as being as close to a conclusion as possible with the info at hand. I left the type out of the title to keep the discussion open. She is a very misunderstood individual and that's one reason i hope for a well considered analysis based on her essence and not the stereotypes.

 

[proteanmix]

I keep getting Sylvia Plath, Edna St. Vincent Millay and Virginia Wolf confused. Freaking Early 20th Century Women's Literature classes.

I say IxF.

What does ISFP and ISFJ poetry look like?

 

[Totenkindly]

What does ISFP and ISFJ poetry look like?

I don't know what *serious* ISFx poetry looks like, unfortunately.

The average ISFJ's I've seen tend to make up either very goofy endearing poetry/songs for their children, or they get overly sentimental or religious and write typical four-line alternating-rhyming stanzas with very very predictable rhymes.

(You see, for an ISFJ, writing serious poetry is *usually* a waste of time that could be spent doing practical things to express their love and emotions.)

An ISFP tends to meander around. A friend in high school used to write very bad, very silly unstructured "rock music lyrics." Usually derivative... They tend to not have a lot of structure, and so they do not often discipline themselves to really produce something that interlocks well, they just dabble around and undermine their own potential...

But if an ISFP was brought up in an environment where they were rewarded and challenged to produce good work, and encouraged to go deeply into and follow the sound and feel of the words wherever they might lead? I have not seen an example of it, but I could imagine it would be quite good.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

What does ISFP and ISFJ poetry look like?

That's a very good question before assuming INF. It's also important to compare a gifted ISF with an equally gifted INF and not ordinary ISFs with renown INFs, if that makes any sense.

Paul McCartney is listed as an ISFP on typelogic.com
(There are also some joke listings like Donald Trump as an ISFP)
The ISFP is considered the kindest of all the personality types.

Louisa May Alcott (author of Little Women) is an ISFJ on the same site, although she is a novelist not a poet, but still seems relevant.

 

[Economica]

I realize she isn't a popular culture figure in line with this subforum's title

Maybe we should rename this forum. If I didn't know it, I wouldn't guess that Popular Culture and Type was about attempting to type famous people, which could be why I seem to recall some typings threads start in The Commune after this subforum opened.

I can't think of an apt name though...

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I haven't read through this yet, but it is a handwriting analysis of Sylvia Plath. It could shed some light.

The following is cut and pasted from the same site:

The handwriting analysis confirms the qualities and limits of this personality which had to bear the tensions pointed out in her biography. From an intellective viewpoint, her intelligence appears inclined to precision and to an original use of language, due to the combination of the signs Clear, Accurate, Narrowness between letters, Methodically Uneven, Twisted, Disconnected. Inclination to precision in defining the external and inner world (Clear, Accurate) becomes a need for precision because of her original creativity (Methodically Uneven), based on an abrupt control (Twisted, Disconnected) and on the demand of a careful and strict choice of terms (Narrowness between the Letters). Narrowness between the Letters (lack of generosity), at a linguistic level, reinforces her demand of a technical precision in the use of language. The same combination, for instance, is required by experimental sciences because it indicates the dominance of the Jungian function of Sensation: the subject is careful about all the smallest manifestations of the external perceptual world (this function is the opposite of Intuition, which, on the contrary ranges above perceptual data).
Sylvia Plath, therefore, is endowed with an exceptional intellective disposition to originality and precision in the use of language, consequently an attitude to poetry (in its components of metrics, consonance-dissonance in terms, full mastering and differentiation in lexicon, etc.).
Problems arises from the feeling, in the rigidity of her personality which exaggerates in imposing itself and in the unilaterality of views. Her handwriting is straight (Upright), suggesting a full focusing of her personality on itself, but all the qualities which make her precise and original in language, do not work at a human level, first of all about herself and then about relationships with others.
Her marked self-control, demand for precision, originality, narrowness of judgement, care for exteriority, inner inquietude because of an excessive self-control, permalosity, represent, both singularly and in the whole ticking time bombs in her personality, which can explode at the slightest stimulus.
She is a proud individual, which takes herself too seriously (Accurate, Narrow between the Letters make her touchy because of her restricted views).
Her sentiment is exigent, as very original but hardly showing. Moreover, it tends to analyze everything, both what she gives and receives (Disconnected) with a strong strictness, increased also by the presence of the sign Twisted (control).
The sign Spacing between words above average does not allow her to reason a little more about her situation to come to a kind of self-control due to ponderation. She always explodes much sooner.
Her handwriting confirms her great writing talent, but her difficulty in indulging a little more herself as well.

 

[proteanmix]

I don't know what *serious* ISFx poetry looks like, unfortunately.

The average ISFJ's I've seen tend to make up either very goofy endearing poetry/songs for their children, or they get overly sentimental or religious and write typical four-line alternating-rhyming stanzas with very very predictable rhymes.

(You see, for an ISFJ, writing serious poetry is *usually* a waste of time that could be spent doing practical things to express their love and emotions.)

An ISFP tends to meander around. A friend in high school used to write very bad, very silly unstructured "rock music lyrics." Usually derivative... They tend to not have a lot of structure, and so they do not often discipline themselves to really produce something that interlocks well, they just dabble around and undermine their own potential...

But if an ISFP was brought up in an environment where they were rewarded and challenged to produce good work, and encouraged to go deeply into and follow the sound and feel of the words wherever they might lead? I have not seen an example of it, but I could imagine it would be quite good.

Wow, do you think you can say this with any certainty? I only know one ISFJ well enough to conjecture, but I know she writes lots praise lyrics (or poetry that she turns into music) and it's not:

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm an ISFJ
And I think writing poetry is a silly waste of time.

And ISFPs...I'd think they'd give INFPs a serious run for their money as far is poetry is concerned.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Well how about that! She is described as a Sensor in Jungian terms right there. The references to rigidity suggest ISFJ over ISFP. Is ISTJ possible? Not sure there. Of course that is only one source of info and not the definitive conclusion on the matter. Awesomely surprising and interesting though.

 

[Totenkindly]

Wow, do you think you can say this with any certainty? I only know one ISFJ well enough to conjecture, but I know she writes lots praise lyrics (or poetry that she turns into music) and it's not:

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm an ISFJ
And I think writing poetry is a silly waste of time.

If you know any ISFJs who do write good poetry or lyrics, I would love to know about it. I am simply speaking from my experience of being immersed in a religious subculture where many of the women are ISFJs... and what I described was the pattern there. I honestly have not met any in that environment who have actually been decent poets.

And ISFPs...I'd think they'd give INFPs a serious run for their money as far is poetry is concerned.

I think they would focus more on the sound and feel of the words themselves, or the visual images conveyed (because of the S)... the INFP is much more prone to abstractions and painting concepts/philosophical moods.

I have seen Mozart classed as an ISFP. his music definitely had structure, but it also had lots of life and conveyed emotion coherently.

 

[proteanmix]

If you know any ISFJs who do write good poetry or lyrics, I would love to know about it. I am simply speaking from my experience of being immersed in a religious subculture where many of the women are ISFJs... and what I described was the pattern there. I honestly have not met any in that environment who have actually been decent poets.

Honestly, I don't know anyone (S or N) that have been "good" poets. If by good, you mean renowned, of course. I know I go to a lot of local poetry slams and I while I'm not actively typing anyone I'm assuming that a fair amount of the artists are sensors and I don't think their poetry is simpler or less intricate. Metaphor, imagery, and vivid language is just the name of the game in that culture. *shrug*

And there's a lot of poetic value in the ability to describe a scene so vividly that you can picture yourself there without using abstractions. I'd think sensors, (esp. Se) would do this much better than an intuitive could, i.e. "imagine you're barefoot in a verdant pasture..."

Have you met any "good" intuitive poets in this particular culture as a compare/contrast?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

And there's a lot of poetic value in the ability to describe a scene so vividly that you can picture yourself there without using abstractions. I'd think sensors, (esp. Se) would do this much better than an intuitive could, i.e. "imagine you're barefoot in a verdant pasture..."

I agree with you here. What i have found is that great art requires an ability to integrate an internal sense of meaning, and expressing it with keen awareness of the sensory world. Some artists use Sensing as the point of reference, but still must develop an inner representative vision, while others use iNtuition as their point of reference and learn to explore and best use the tools of the external world to communicate this. Creativity is not about isolated thinking and perceiving, but about integration of diverse elements.

 

[raincrow007]

What say ye?

Have you considered investigating Ted Hughes' Birthday Letters, for more input on the inner workings of Sylvia?

Just a thought.

 

[Totenkindly]

Honestly, I don't know anyone (S or N) that have been "good" poets. If by good, you mean renowned, of course.

No, I just mean "good." (I don't care if they have been fortunate enough to become famous. If they can "move" you with their words, then I would call them good.)

I know I go to a lot of local poetry slams and I while I'm not actively typing anyone I'm assuming that a fair amount of the artists are sensors and I don't think their poetry is simpler or less intricate. Metaphor, imagery, and vivid language is just the name of the game in that culture. *shrug*

I think the major difference would only be what I said before -- that intuitives would focus on underlying concept, the evoking of resonating concepts, where sensors focus more on the actual evoking of feelings and rhythm and sound and how the words actually play together.

And both S's and N's do cover both areas; it is certainly not exclusive.

All three of my children have some artistic or musical talent, as another example. The eldest is an NT and he seems to comprehend how a song fits together; he can predict what logically comes next, and "reads" very well.

The middle child is an ESFP, and while he cannot articulate a description of the parts of the songs and how they fit together into a bigger picture, I consider him the more talented musician... if he would practice. That boy has rhythm and he "feels" the music and can bring it to life. He just sense it on a different level -- how the notes and the rhythm all play off each other. It's a very "sensual" thing to him, like kneeding clay or rolling in snow. He feels the actual sensation of the music, and I think this is powerful.

Have you met any "good" intuitive poets in this particular culture as a compare/contrast?

Well, the Christian worship scene has moved on from an SJ flavor (hymns full of doctrine and "intellectualized praise" music) to a very NF feel. Almost all of your major commercialized worship leaders are Ns now... and usually NFs, with a lot of SPs playing as part of the bands (because they just love the feel of being immersed in the music, and let the NF actually lead things).

I don't see much Christian poetry outside of the verse that occurs in song lyrics (so that is what I am focusing on). Honestly, I think the mentality of conservative Christianity, with its focus on structure and the "right theology" rather than emote (because feelings are suspect) and exploration is bad for creativity. Which leads to the cookie-cutter verse I describe. (As another example, you get popular Christianized art like Precious Moments as well as Thomas Kincaide...)

But I think I am wandering off-topic now...

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I don't see much Christian poetry outside of the verse that occurs in song lyrics (so that is what I am focusing on). Honestly, I think the mentality of conservative Christianity, with its focus on structure and the "right theology" rather than emote (because feelings are suspect) and exploration is bad for creativity. Which leads to the cookie-cutter verse I describe. (As another example, you get popular Christianized art like Precious Moments as well as Thomas Kincaide...)(

A friend of mine who majored in writing and has some skill married a pastor. She has shared with me the frustrations of being asked to write a poem with each line beginning with a letter of the alphabet, or some other predictable scheme that someone thought was creative. She feels very boxed in. I had a pastor's wife who expressed how sad it is that some people stray so far from the fold. Some even start painting abstract art. The narrow concept of the arts is what initially made me drift from organized religion. It feels like being in a dark little box. The blindness is profound. It made me doubt their wisdom in other areas of life when they idolized and valued such gross ignorance regarding the arts.

 

[Totenkindly]

She has shared with me the frustrations of being asked to write a poem with each line beginning with a letter of the alphabet, or some other predictable scheme that someone thought was creative. She feels very boxed in. ...The narrow concept of the arts is what initially made me drift from organized religion. It feels like being in a dark little box. ... It made me doubt their wisdom in other areas of life when they idolized and valued such gross ignorance regarding the arts.

Psalms 119 (I think that is the number) is actually an acrostic of sorts, each stanza beginning with a different letter.

I think conventions are good "forms" to pour creativity into it. Everything needs a structure. Bach was creative, even though he merely used the form of key to write a series of inventions (and when he ran out of keys, he was done).

What bothered me more about Christian "art" was more that it wasn't really art, it actually was usually just didactic in nature -- a way of teaching the "right answers." That was always the problem: The answers are already known and you are not allowed to reach different ones, but art is about exploration and looking at things in new ways that reveal new variations/orientations of truth.

(Now I *know* I've derailed the thread!)

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Here, i'll steer the horses home.

Have you considered investigating Ted Hughes' Birthday Letters, for more input on the inner workings of Sylvia?

Just a thought.

Thanks for the link. I will look at those when i get a chance. I hope others will as well.

I have mentioned elsewhere that it is common for INFJs and ISFJs types to be confused. It would be interesting if i confused those two types in Plath's personality. One thing worth noting: all else being equal, i would suggest that in equivalently introverted S vs. N, it is the Sensor that will be a more pronounced recluse. This is because the iNtuitor can withdraw into their own mind more readily. The Sensor will withdraw in the concrete world. Just a thought that may relate to Plath or not.

 

[The Ü™]

I have seen Mozart classed as an ISFP. his music definitely had structure, but it also had lots of life and conveyed emotion coherently.

That's probably Keirseyan influence, where he takes the ISFP's nickname of Composer a bit too literally. To Keirsey, if you're an artist, then you must be an ISFP. And if you're a spiritual leader, you must be any sort of NF.

I think Mozart was an ENFP. On historical accounts, there is no way Mozart was an Introvert.

Most classical composers are probably N's, because classical music is very abstract.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

That's probably Keirseyan influence, where he takes the ISFP's nickname of Composer a bit too literally. To Keirsey, if you're an artist, then you must be an ISFP. And if you're a spiritual leader, you must be any sort of NF.

I think Mozart was an ENFP. On historical accounts, there is no way Mozart was an Introvert.

Most classical composers are probably N's, because classical music is very abstract.

A compelling case can be made for Mozart as ENTP, but that is material for another thread.

As far as Sylvia Plath is concerned, both INFP and ISFJ look to be the forerunners in my mind at the present moment. I actually think she wasn't an INFJ, although that seems more likely than ISFP.

I don't see much evidence for ISFP in her. She was too restricted and torn up. ISFPs as artists are really delightful, and their strength is that completely raw authenticity. They are exactly what they express, and their expression is tender, firey, nuanced, like that of a brilliant child. It's very compelling, but i would say of the four I-F-'s the most diametrically opposed to Plath's type.